Topic: Can you guys please do something about this dilema?

[isamu]

Hi guys

Seems there is a problem over at the Shryuken forums regarding FBA, GGPO and Atomiswave/Naomi. Some guys over there are under the delusional impression that Atomiswave and Naomi games will soon be playable online via GGPO/2DF. I trying to knock some sense into them but they aren't listening. Can one of you explain why this will NEVER happen?

Here is the **thread** and here is what I just posted....

Hopefully we can get the rest of the games dumped now so we can finally play them via GGPO.

You guys are really starting to get on my f***ing nerves with this sh**. Just stop it already and stop bumping this f***ing thread, in hopes of playing Atomiswave/Naomi games in either GGPO or 2DF, because it is N**E**V**E**R going to happen! E-V-E-R!! Here are the facts. Pay attention kids......


1)Atomiswave/Naomi hardware is currently in early WIP in MAME.....MAME!!! Not Final Burn Alpha. FBA is a completely different emulator than MAME. Apples and Oranges!

2)Atomiswave/Naomi games use 3D graphics. Final Burn Alpha emulates fairly old 2D games....with CPS3 being the most powerful hardware it emulates. CPS3 is fully 2D and is nowhere NEAR as powerful as Atomiswave or Naomi.

3)The Final Burn Alpha devs are STILL currently focusing on emulating drivers for very old 2D games(not a bad thing, mind you) and have mentioned that they have absolutely NO intention of attempting to tackle drivers for 3D games.

In other words, Sarah Palin will become President of the United States before you see 3D games emulated in FBA. Hell, even the Wolf Unit driver, which emulates the old Midway Classics like Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam is not emu'ed yet.


So please guys, I know it hurts.....I know you refuse to believe it....but trust me when I say you will never ever play Atomiswave/Naomi games in Final Burn Alpha, let alone online via GGPO.

Would I like it to happen? Of course I would. Hell, I would love Ponder to add the entire Final Burn Alpha Catalog to GGPO. But he has shown no interest in doing so for the past few months and he has that right, as it's his project.

My dream would be for someone like Christophe, Ponder, Treble Winner, or IQ_32 to dig into MAME's source code, find out how the emu works and write a new netcode from scratch. One that is as good if not better than Final Burn Alpha. This is a big dream but I realize the chances of it happening are absurdly remote.

Just wake up and realize that this is reality and things are the way they are. Atomisewave and Naomi have a long ass way to go before they are fully playable in MAME, and when they DO become playable, the only way you'll be able to play them online will be via the shittiest f***ing client to ever step foot in the earth's atmosphere.....Kaillera.

So again, stop bumping this thread and making comments like "Can't wait to play Atomiswave/Naomi games in GGPO"....it's a f***ing pipe dream guys. Sorry.

Are any of the above comments inaccurate, gentlemen?

[iq_132]

You guys are really starting to get on my f***ing nerves with this sh**. Just stop it already and stop bumping this f***ing thread, in hopes of playing Atomiswave/Naomi games in either GGPO or 2DF, because it is N**E**V**E**R going to happen! E-V-E-R!! Here are the facts. Pay attention kids......


1)Atomiswave/Naomi hardware is currently in early WIP in MAME.....MAME!!! Not Final Burn Alpha. FBA is a completely different emulator than MAME. Apples and Oranges!

2)Atomiswave/Naomi games use 3D graphics. Final Burn Alpha emulates fairly old 2D games....with CPS3 being the most powerful hardware it emulates. CPS3 is fully 2D and is nowhere NEAR as powerful as Atomiswave or Naomi.

...

3)The Final Burn Alpha devs are STILL currently focusing on emulating drivers for very old 2D games(not a bad thing, mind you) and have mentioned that they have absolutely NO intention of attempting to tackle drivers for 3D games.

Speaking for myself, that's entirely true. I can only name a handful of 3d games I even like (bioshock, mario64, uhh?)

In other words, Sarah Palin will become President of the United States before you see 3D games emulated in FBA. Hell, even the Wolf Unit driver, which emulates the old Midway Classics like Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam is not emu'ed yet.

Please never mention Sarah Palin in the same sentence with FBA. Every time you do, God gives hot girls babies or some other permanent STDs. But in all seriousness, yeah, the wolf unit driver isn't high on my list at all. I really don't enjoy the MK games, having even bought them on Genesis/Megadrive to try and force myself to.

So please guys, I know it hurts.....I know you refuse to believe it....but trust me when I say you will never ever play Atomiswave/Naomi games in Final Burn Alpha, let alone online via GGPO.

Never say never, however the odds of it happening any time soon are about 1000000 to 1.

Would I like it to happen? Of course I would. Hell, I would love Ponder to add the entire Final Burn Alpha Catalog to GGPO. But he has shown no interest in doing so for the past few months and he has that right, as it's his project.

I'd like it if he'd release his sources. A nice, full, changed source would be nice. It'd really make me stop disliking GPPO as a license violating build... but we can't always have what we want in life, I suppose. Though I can tell anyone who mentions GPPO in a game request to get lost. lol

My dream would be for someone like Christophe, Ponder, Treble Winner, or IQ_32 to dig into MAME's source code, find out how the emu works and write a new netcode from scratch. One that is as good if not better than Final Burn Alpha. This is a big dream but I realize the chances of it happening are absurdly remote.

And you've hurt my feelings. I haven't been sold so short since James33 spent more time here.

Just wake up and realize that this is reality and things are the way they are. Atomisewave and Naomi have a long ass way to go before they are fully playable in MAME, and when they DO become playable, the only way you'll be able to play them online will be via the shittiest f***ing client to ever step foot in the earth's atmosphere.....Kaillera.

No comment

So again, stop bumping this thread and making comments like "Can't wait to play Atomiswave/Naomi games in GGPO"....it's a f***ing pipe dream guys. Sorry.

Yup.

[isamu]

IQ, thanks for re-assuring that we're pretty much on the same page here bro.

Those guys are asking for the world, while I only want a slice of cheese. I was going to start a different thread about GGPO/Mame/etc, but since this one is already open I may as fire off a few rounds of Q's....

1)Who exactly is responsible for Final Burn Alpha's netcode? Who was it that made it possible? And do you think this person would be persuaded to implement it into MAME? I'm just curious.

2)IQ you have an influence on a lot of people....I'm willing to bet Ponder is one of them. I'm willing to bet he would listen to you. Do you think you could persuade him to add more games to GGPO? I honestly don't understand why he hasn't done so in the last few months.

3)You mentioned you'd like to see the source code for GGPO. I'm curious....what would you do with it? Are you implying that you'd create your own version of GGPO, only this time you'd add ALL the games in FBA's roster? That'd certainly be the bees knees

4)You mention you don't enjoy or play too many 3D games. It's ironic, I'm the same way. Unfortunately most gamers do not share our tastes. Hence the reason why hardly anyone plays the non-fighting games in ggpo, and stick mostly to King of Fighters and Third Strike.

Finally, I am going to go on a rant here so please bare with me.....

I really cannot tell you how much it depresses me to see things the way they are with regards to the current state of 2D emulation and online gaming.

IQ, I'd like to get your personal theories on this....but in your own opinion, why do you suspect things are the way they are, in regards to FBA having great net code, while MAME only has Kaillera?

Why do you suppose the MAME devs are so against netplay in MAME? Do they not realize that netplay means multiplayer, and that many games in MAME are multiplayer(meaning 2 or more people playing the game)?

I just find it sickening how here we have MAME.....a fantastic emulator capable of emulating over 8000 wonderful arcade games. And yet none of the mame team devs are willing to have an open mind about netplay, and hold this absurd philosophy about how it doesn't belong in the emu. Give me a break. If anything, not having it is a detriment to the enjoyment of the emu in my opinion. If they feel having netplay in mame is inappropriate or not worth it, then how do you explain the RIDICULOUS success of Xbox Live Arcade? XBLA is BOOMING because many of the old arcade 2D classics can be played online....and tons of people have told me and have mentioned in different forums how much adding netplay to those games have given them a huge breath of fresh air, and a giant shot in the replayability arm!

C'mon mame devs, it's all about online and multiplayer games these days. I don't see how having netplay would hurt the mame scene. It's already in there via Kaillera and that hasn't stopped you guys from doing what you want to do. Why not just give the mame fans what they want and add this one little thing? It will help bring mame back into the limelight and I bet many people would donate to the project as a thank you to the devs for adding it.

If anyone from the mame team is reading this, I hope you guys re-consider your philosophy, and approach the netplay idea from a different perspective.

In a perfect  world, MAME would have built in netplay on par with FBA. Ponder would then use it for GGPO as its emu, and everybody and their mother would be playing all the oldschool 2D games night and day, all day long online with no lag.

I'd open up a room for Metamorphic Force, and there'd be hundreds of thousands of people playing it co-op. Ditto for all the other 2-player non-fighting games. GGPO would have the user base of Halo 3 and CoD4 combined! And Ponder would sit back and be proud that so many people are there using his program.

Oh well, perhaps in an alternate reality this may happen

[iq_132]

IQ, thanks for re-assuring that we're pretty much on the same page here bro.

Those guys are asking for the world, while I only want a slice of cheese. I was going to start a different thread about GGPO/Mame/etc, but since this one is already open I may as fire off a few rounds of Q's....

1)Who exactly is responsible for Final Burn Alpha's netcode? Who was it that made it possible? And do you think this person would be persuaded to implement it into MAME? I'm just curious.

No idea, honestly.

2)IQ you have an influence on a lot of people....I'm willing to bet Ponder is one of them. I'm willing to bet he would listen to you. Do you think you could persuade him to add more games to GGPO? I honestly don't understand why he hasn't done so in the last few months.

Not terribly interested. Sorry. It's not really my place to tell other builds what to do other than to bother them about following the license.

3)You mentioned you'd like to see the source code for GGPO. I'm curious....what would you do with it? Are you implying that you'd create your own version of GGPO, only this time you'd add ALL the games in FBA's roster? That'd certainly be the bees knees

It's not that I care so much about seeing their source, it's that I care about them following the license.

4)You mention you don't enjoy or play too many 3D games. It's ironic, I'm the same way. Unfortunately most gamers do not share our tastes. Hence the reason why hardly anyone plays the non-fighting games in ggpo, and stick mostly to King of Fighters and Third Strike.

Meh. lol. Honestly I don't play many games in FBA. The ones that eat up most of my time are Side-scrolling beat-em-ups like KOV, Vertical scrolling shooters (Nostradamus), and puzzle games (various).

Finally, I am going to go on a rant here so please bare with me.....

I really cannot tell you how much it depresses me to see things the way they are with regards to the current state of 2D emulation and online gaming.

IQ, I'd like to get your personal theories on this....but in your own opinion, why do you suspect things are the way they are, in regards to FBA having great net code, while MAME only has Kaillera?

We're a lot more lax about enforcing licensing issues. lol We don't threaten, we just annoy people into it.

Why do you suppose the MAME devs are so against netplay in MAME? Do they not realize that netplay means multiplayer, and that many games in MAME are multiplayer(meaning 2 or more people playing the game)?

I don't think that they are against it so much as against using a closed-source library that has a lot of bugs.

I just find it sickening how here we have MAME.....a fantastic emulator capable of emulating over 8000 wonderful arcade games. And yet none of the mame team devs are willing to have an open mind about netplay, and hold this absurd philosophy about how it doesn't belong in the emu. Give me a break. If anything, not having it is a detriment to the enjoyment of the emu in my opinion. If they feel having netplay in mame is inappropriate or not worth it, then how do you explain the RIDICULOUS success of Xbox Live Arcade? XBLA is BOOMING because many of the old arcade 2D classics can be played online....and tons of people have told me and have mentioned in different forums how much adding netplay to those games have given them a huge breath of fresh air, and a giant shot in the replayability arm!

C'mon mame devs, it's all about online and multiplayer games these days. I don't see how having netplay would hurt the mame scene. It's already in there via Kaillera and that hasn't stopped you guys from doing what you want to do. Why not just give the mame fans what they want and add this one little thing? It will help bring mame back into the limelight and I bet many people would donate to the project as a thank you to the devs for adding it.

If anyone from the mame team is reading this, I hope you guys re-consider your philosophy, and approach the netplay idea from a different perspective.

In a perfect  world, MAME would have built in netplay on par with FBA. Ponder would then use it for GGPO as its emu, and everybody and their mother would be playing all the oldschool 2D games night and day, all day long online with no lag.

I'd open up a room for Metamorphic Force, and there'd be hundreds of thousands of people playing it co-op. Ditto for all the other 2-player non-fighting games. GGPO would have the user base of Halo 3 and CoD4 combined! And Ponder would sit back and be proud that so many people are there using his program.

I can't imagine that's true. lol. Though the Mystic Warriors hardware is on my "to do" list [though the list is a bit... erm... tenative, since I'm massively ADHD].

[isamu]

Cool man, thanks for the reply. Well we'll just have to wait and see what happens in this crazy world of emulation. In any case thanks for your contributions in FBA and keep up the great work. 

[Haze]

Why do you suppose the MAME devs are so against netplay in MAME? Do they not realize that netplay means multiplayer, and that many games in MAME are multiplayer(meaning 2 or more people playing the game)?

I just find it sickening how here we have MAME.....a fantastic emulator capable of emulating over 8000 wonderful arcade games. And yet none of the mame team devs are willing to have an open mind about netplay, and hold this absurd philosophy about how it doesn't belong in the emu. Give me a break. If anything, not having it is a detriment to the enjoyment of the emu in my opinion. If they feel having netplay in mame is inappropriate or not worth it, then how do you explain the RIDICULOUS success of Xbox Live Arcade? XBLA is BOOMING because many of the old arcade 2D classics can be played online....and tons of people have told me and have mentioned in different forums how much adding netplay to those games have given them a huge breath of fresh air, and a giant shot in the replayability arm!

It's not one of the goals of the project at all.

MAME is a reference emulator, Online multiplayer is irrelevant.  How popular things are on XBLA is irrelevant, how much it adds to the playability is irrelevant.

All current netplay implementations are illegal license violating BS which isn't wanted.

Netplay itself could actually put MAME in direct competition with XBLA (which as you've mentioned is very popular).  Again, MAME isn't about this, we're perfectly happy to see emulation booming on XBLA, and in many cases the people developing such using MAME as a reference for their emulation.  Maybe XBLA is booming because people can't do it with MAME?

Buggy netplay libraries also open you up to a world of hurt through online exploits.  Is it in the interests of a project like MAME to say 'don't use versions x.xx - y.yy because your PC is at risk of being hacked?'  If we'd used / endorsed the k**** crap that would be the case right now as there were known exploits in it for a while.  If exploits were found the team would have to derail from making real progress while we fixed bugs in a subsystem none of the devs care about, but could expose your PC to various hacks if we didn't?  (which we wouldn't be able to fix anyway had we endorsed k***** due to their closed source license violating approach)

As far as the developers are concerned there are precisely zero benefits in adding netplay support, and plenty of reasons why it isn't really the best idea in the world.  It's not an absurd philosophy, and is probably one of the wiser decisions made in the history of the project.  You might not like it, but the decision is the correct one.  There are more important things to do, like making REAL progress which, if you hadn't noticed is the direction I push the project in, even if Aaron doesn't seem to want to lately.

[isamu]

Whoah......is that the real Haze? Sup man(this is OutRun2 from the MAME world forums BTW....Y'know, the guy you can't stand over there lol?) I honestly didn't expect you to reply to this thread, let alone offer a detailed and civil explanation on the matter. For that, I am very appreciative and thank you

I do have to ask though....are you back on the mame team? If so, what made you come back?

Y'know, reading your comments has shed some light on the reason behind the decision not put netplay in mame. I now see where you guys are coming from, and I honestly can respect that.

Still, that being the case, it would be nice for someone, someday, to develop an alternative 2D emulator...one who's purpose is strictly for the enjoyment of games, and one that supports as many games as mame, but with solid built in netplay. FBA is close, and I love it to death.....but we all know it will never support the amount of games mame does(not the fault of IQ, Treble, or any other dev).

I guess what I'm saying is I just want to be able to play all 8000 of those games online with no lag someday, and simply pretend I'm 16yrs old in an arcade again, and not being able to do so has got me down in the dumps

XBLA is sh** by the way.....laggy games, and shitty filters are not the way to go.

[Haze]

Whoah......is that the real Haze? Sup man(this is OutRun2 from the MAME world forums BTW....Y'know, the guy you can't stand over there lol?) I honestly didn't expect you to reply to this thread, let alone offer a detailed and civil explanation on the matter. For that, I am very appreciative and thank you

I do have to ask though....are you back on the mame team? If so, what made you come back?

Y'know, reading your comments has shed some light on the reason behind the decision not put netplay in mame. I now see where you guys are coming from, and I honestly can respect that.

Still, that being the case, it would be nice for someone, someday, to develop an alternative 2D emulator...one who's purpose is strictly for the enjoyment of games, and one that supports as many games as mame, but with solid built in netplay. FBA is close, and I love it to death.....but we all know it will never support the amount of games mame does(not the fault of IQ, Treble, or any other dev).

I guess what I'm saying is I just want to be able to play all 8000 of those games online with no lag someday, and simply pretend I'm 16yrs old in an arcade again, and not being able to do so has got me down in the dumps

XBLA is sh** by the way.....laggy games, and shitty filters are not the way to go.

Yes, this is my actual account here.  I registered so that I could give some tips to IQ etc. when he needed them.

As for being part of the MAME team, no, not really.  I disagree with many of the petty politics they're enforcing.  However, I see the overall meaning of the project as more important than than some misguided choices, poor leadership and impossible to work with team members who only want to cause trouble, so I still contribute.

As I've said, MAME is a reference emulator, if somebody wants to take the findings and make their own emulator, which plays all the 3d games at full speed, has netplay etc. etc. then they're welcome to use the findings made in MAME to do so.  There is enough information in MAME and the source is available, so people can re-implement things as they see fit (which is pretty much what IQ is doing with FBA)

The majority of the work that goes into MAME is research, and working out how things work, once that's done, it's documented, understood, and other people can use it (or, if they find out it's wrong) improve on it.  That's what MAME is about, and I'm sure IQ is thankful it exists ;-)

People don't always take what's in MAME and write their own 'better' emulators, because it's very easy to underestimate the sheer amount of work that actually goes into MAME for each supported game, and while a lot of the hard work is done, reimplementing it in an optimized fashion (understanding which parts of the emulation are important, and removing ones that aren't without breaking things and making assumptions over what games will do) can be an equally difficult task.  Again this isn't the job for MAME, because well optimized code, with lots of shortcuts can hinder readability, and thus make it less useful as a reference project.

There is little reason that FBA couldn't support all the games that MAME does, although it would be a monumental task, and I doubt IQ would feel like writing a CPU core that only one game uses for example ;-)  That said, it would be several magnitudes less work than the work that has gone into creating MAME (as everything has already been reverse engineered, it's just a coding task), so realistically is something that a small team could do over a year or two.

MAME is what it is mainly because of the ideals the project has, it would be nowhere near as big, nor as useful if the focus was significantly different.  I will criticize Aaron quite heavily for being unwilling to merge MAME / MESS (it would benefit both projects significantly) but other than that MAME is a developer / reverse engineering focused emulator, not a gaming one.  It's the only one that's really survived the test of time and that is a key reason behind it.  (You could spend all day talking about the ones that didn't)

It might simply appear to be a toy to you, but as the years pass the information contained in MAME becomes more and more important, the project is an encyclopedia in it's own right, and the contributions made to it will last longer than any of the current team, contributors, or 'fan' sites with an overinflated view of their own importance.

[isamu]

snip

Wow. This is the first time I have seen anyone from the dev team take time to offer a very detailed explanation behind the focis and philosophy of MAME. After reading that, I have a better appreciation for what the emu stands for. Thank You.

Now that being said, as important a program as it is for reference and documentation, boy does it sure deliver significant amount of enjoyment for the fans. I mean seriously, MAME, I would have to say, is the most enjoyable software program I have ever used on my PC.....notice I didn't say emulator, I said software program, period. Meaning out of all the apps Windows can run, this one is the most fun to use, netplay or no netplay.

To this day I am still amazed at mame. If you told me 10 years ago I'd be able to play 1:1 replica of hundreds of games on my PC and full speed, I'd of slapped you sideways. But here we are, enjoying these games and I have personally been having a blast using mame since 2000. It has a come a long way thanks to you, Aaron, Nicoli, R.Belmont and many others.

I am curious though Haze.....from a personal standpoint, aside from mame, does having netplay in an emulator for old 2D games bother you at all? Are you "against it", so to speak, simply because it's there? Do you play any games online, yourself? I'm just curious is all.

Also would you ever consider joining IQ and Treble on the FBA project, helping them make it better? If so, would it bother you knowing you'd be working on an emu that does NOT share the same values as mame, and one that has a solid netplay feature?

Again, I'm not judging, I'm just curious.

[Haze]

Wow. This is the first time I have seen anyone from the dev team take time to offer a very detailed explanation behind the focis and philosophy of MAME. After reading that, I have a better appreciation for what the emu stands for. Thank You.

Now that being said, as important a program as it is for reference and documentation, boy does it sure deliver significant amount of enjoyment for the fans. I mean seriously, MAME, I would have to say, is the most enjoyable software program I have ever used on my PC.....notice I didn't say emulator, I said software program, period. Meaning out of all the apps Windows can run, this one is the most fun to use, netplay or no netplay.

To this day I am still amazed at mame. If you told me 10 years ago I'd be able to play 1:1 replica of hundreds of games on my PC and full speed, I'd of slapped you sideways. But here we are, enjoying these games and I have personally been having a blast using mame since 2000. It has a come a long way thanks to you, Aaron, Nicoli, R.Belmont and many others.

I am curious though Haze.....from a personal standpoint, aside from mame, does having netplay in an emulator for old 2D games bother you at all? Are you "against it", so to speak, simply because it's there? Do you play any games online, yourself? I'm just curious is all.

Also would you ever consider joining IQ and Treble on the FBA project, helping them make it better? If so, would it bother you knowing you'd be working on an emu that does NOT share the same values as mame, and one that has a solid netplay feature?

Again, I'm not judging, I'm just curious.

The last game I really *enjoyed* playing online was Quake 2 (with lots of custom maps, mods etc.) until it was overrun by cheaters.

If somebody did a netplay build which adhered to the license, was fully open source, and was willing to maintain it then no, there wouldn't be a problem as long as people understood that anything bad that may happen to their PC through using it was not mamedev's concern, and that the mame team would not offer support for such a build.

As IQ and myself have found out several times however, the people who usually do these things seem to have a complete disregard for any open source license agreements, and are fanatical fighter kiddies who seem to think the first port of call for any problems is the official team.

FBA doesn't (legally) have any kind of solid netplay, and to be quite honest anybody running the closed source netplay builds + libs are exposing themselves to the same risks outlined above as it's impossible for guarantee any kind of quality and as you've seen update schedules seem lax, so if a serious bug was found would it actually get fixed?  That's why it's impossible for any of the FBA devs to actually endorse a project with such blatant disregard for the license.

As for helping with FBA, I'm already quite willing to give tips to IQ when asked, but I prefer to figure out how things work and break new ground.  A significant number of the games and drivers IQ has been adding are based on MAME drivers I created long ago, so, in that sense I am helping with FBA, simply by working on MAME because it means that all IQ has to do is reimplement, not reverse engineer from scratch.

MAME is easier and quicker for rapid prototyping of ideas, creating a new driver to simply test something requires minimal work and aside from some recent issues Aaron introduced, the universal debugger is invaluable.  When reverse engineering things, and working them out for the first time it's much easier to use MAME for these reasons.  I've looked over FBA a few times, and there seems to be a significant amount more overhead in creating something simple if all you want to do is a quick test.  Not really a problem because the projects have different goals.