Author Topic: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^  (Read 27171 times)

Offline CaptainCPS

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NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« on: January 10, 2008, 01:11:29 AM »
Yeah R.Belmont has been posting some nice news , and I just noticed them today ^^...

This was the first news...

Quote

World of wonders

It turns out that Samuele Zannoli, who’s been fixing up the SH-4 CPU core, had a little something extra to go with it…



Don’t get too excited, we’re still a long way from playable games, and the speed is pretty bad.



...then the latest news about NAOMI ^^...

Quote

A little help from my friends

Some small progress. Big thanks to the hero of Chankast, the man they call ElSemi for some technical details. (You’d think Sega would have given up on throwing random weirdness into their hardware by this point. You’d be wrong).




Yeah speed is slow, but that was the same thing I was reading about CPS3 not so long ago :p and now FBA have it running like its trademark... 'fast'. Probably with the time there will be some speedhacks to break the memory loops and consecutively speed up the cpu. Im sure there are ways to get things going faster, ...at the end DreamCast is a powerful console but the emus run pretty fast on my PC.

I'll definitely will be getting an electronic course with PLC soon, I want to help in some of this but they are too fast xDD, I thought NAOMI would come emulated in some years hehe.

SeeYaa!
 :biggrin:

« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 06:25:11 PM by iq_132 »

Offline pmc2

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 10:34:55 AM »
Naomi 2 exactly

Offline MasterPhW

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 07:47:44 PM »
Yeah, it's really nice to see, but as you know, MAME is a badass in emulating 3D games.
I'd like to see a non-MAME emu taking up the whole 3D emulation instead of these Software Emulation in MAME like its stated in the license... >.<
That would really kick as IMHO.
MAME++ was a great idea, because it had support for ZN1/2 hardware rendering, BUT a triple license break: non-MAME games, 3d harware rendering and closed source.
Shame on this...
I also don't think, that we'll see Naomi II emulation in far future.
Okay, you said, that the cps3 emulation seems to be impossible,too", BUT it was impossible because of the encryption. Once the encryption was cracked, it got emulated fairly quick.
Naomi needs encryption cracked AND its very complex unlike CPS3 which was relatively straightforward.
Even if MAME gets Naomi working beyond the BIOS logo (which may not happen till years due to encryption), it will run at approx. 1 fps on the most modern hardware I think. :(
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Offline CaptainCPS

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 08:43:03 PM »
Yeah, it's really nice to see, but as you know, MAME is a badass in emulating 3D games.
I'd like to see a non-MAME emu taking up the whole 3D emulation instead of these Software Emulation in MAME like its stated in the license... >.<
That would really kick as IMHO.
MAME++ was a great idea, because it had support for ZN1/2 hardware rendering, BUT a triple license break: non-MAME games, 3d harware rendering and closed source.
Shame on this...
I also don't think, that we'll see Naomi II emulation in far future.
Okay, you said, that the cps3 emulation seems to be impossible,too", BUT it was impossible because of the encryption. Once the encryption was cracked, it got emulated fairly quick.
Naomi needs encryption cracked AND its very complex unlike CPS3 which was relatively straightforward.
Even if MAME gets Naomi working beyond the BIOS logo (which may not happen till years due to encryption), it will run at approx. 1 fps on the most modern hardware I think. :(


I dont know where you saw that written by me, but anyway  :p

I have to say that CPS3 was not so easy to crack, there was Andreas Naive who worked in the algo and the study of the encryption, he is very good at math and logic, so that's why "it looked easy, or straightforward like you said" but it was not that easy.

btw, about the emulation of NAOMI happening in years, I dont think so, are you not aware of what is this topic about? ^^u...

finally the speed could go fast if DirectX is used right and the CPU emulation is implemented good too... the core of MAME by history, has made all emulated systems go slower compared to other emulators, why? because how it's coded to work.

Probably some of the MAMe users have never noticed slow speeds because they have a NASA computer, but if you come from the old emulation times, MAME has always been slow...BUT have to state that it emulates the systems correclty.

Moderns PC CAN run more than that believe me, ...i will only mention a thing..."Quad Core CPUs / 64 bits / Extended Memory / +1000 FSB / +8 GB DDR2 RAM / Etc "...there are lot of stuff that can be used to have more performance on whatever you do on a PC, ...the other thing that has to be done is update the applications to USE those technology enhancements available these days.

SeeYaa!
 :biggrin:

 

Offline OopsWare

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 10:02:18 PM »
unlike VM, to emulate a different cpu , we need a 20x times powerful cpu in C/C++ at least .
NAOMI contains a 200MHz Sh-4 and a 45MHz ARM7 , it means one 5.0GHz cpu can emu that
two cpu only.  :idiot: .  even if some hack code can speedup sh-4 , but still difficult too emu
the arm7's flag register.  leastways , NDS emulators is slow for the moment even ONE 33/66MHz arm

needs years waitting .... my poor T40 laptop ....



Offline CaptainCPS

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 11:51:58 PM »
unlike VM, to emulate a different cpu , we need a 20x times powerful cpu in C/C++ at least .
NAOMI contains a 200MHz Sh-4 and a 45MHz ARM7 , it means one 5.0GHz cpu can emu that
two cpu only.  :idiot: .  even if some hack code can speedup sh-4 , but still difficult too emu
the arm7's flag register.  leastways , NDS emulators is slow for the moment even ONE 33/66MHz arm

needs years waitting .... my poor T40 laptop ....




Well here I have something that can run NAOMI CPUs lol  :p

Quote
Ultimate Rig
Liquid Nitrogen Keeps Overclocked 5GHz CPU from Cooking



Chances are you won't be seeing this kind of action from your friend's overclocked system, but the crew at Universal ABIT showed off a Core 2 Extreme X6800 CPU overclocked from 2.93GHz to 5GHz. The CPU was churning out Pi calculations while keeping cool with liquid nitrogen. The purpose was to show off their new AB9 QuadGT motherboard (and how cool liquid nitrogen can make your PC look). – Louis Ramirez


http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/ultimate-rig/liquid-nitrogen-keeps-overclocked-5ghz-cpu-from-cooking-268823.php

...but now seriously I think the followings CPUs can handle that, and could be adquired for desktop PCs, check them out:

http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2xe/specifications.htm

3Ghz x4 (Quad Core) = ~12Ghz ... so the only need to get NAOMI woking with this kind of CPUs is implementing the handling of multi-cpu threading into the emulator that is willing to run this system + using 64 bits enhancements, and knowing ElSemi and his emulation interests, probably there will be a single emu that would do that, since MAME is not going to implement something like this for now afaik.

btw, to get a system emulated there is no need to get it running at 60fps, but IF the users want to enjoy the emulation of a system then we need those 60fps =)

SeeYaa!
 :biggrin: 

Offline MasterPhW

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 07:42:19 AM »
I dont know where you saw that written by me, but anyway  :p
Sorry, I didn't meant specifically you, I only stated, that a lot guys said that before. Sorry for that confusion.
I have to say that CPS3 was not so easy to crack, there was Andreas Naive who worked in the algo and the study of the encryption, he is very good at math and logic, so that's why "it looked easy, or straightforward like you said" but it was not that easy.
Yeah, I've watched the whole encryption/decryption process and he did a f*cking great job in reverse engeneering.
btw, about the emulation of NAOMI happening in years, I dont think so, are you not aware of what is this topic about? ^^u...
Yeah, I'm not that silly, you know! :P
But emulation begins for me, like I already stated, after the bios and its starting screens, that means the devs did a good beginning, but it's still far away from something I could call emulation.
finally the speed could go fast if DirectX is used right and the CPU emulation is implemented good too... the core of MAME by history, has made all emulated systems go slower compared to other emulators, why? because how it's coded to work.

Probably some of the MAMe users have never noticed slow speeds because they have a NASA computer, but if you come from the old emulation times, MAME has always been slow...BUT have to state that it emulates the systems correclty.
Yeah I stated the same: MAME is a synonym for accurate, but sometimes also slow emulation, that's why I prefer FBA (and YOUR FBAE build! :)) or Zinc for my specific interest, not MAME. Same applies to MESS, I would never use it again, because I've had such bettter experineces with "real" only this system emulators.
Moderns PC CAN run more than that believe me, ...i will only mention a thing..."Quad Core CPUs / 64 bits / Extended Memory / +1000 FSB / +8 GB DDR2 RAM / Etc "...there are lot of stuff that can be used to have more performance on whatever you do on a PC, ...the other thing that has to be done is update the applications to USE those technology enhancements available these days.
Yeah, but MAME won't be updated with all these stuff in the near future, you know... so we won't see fast and good 3D emulation of Naomi II or any other "newer" 3D games in near future.
3Ghz x4 (Quad Core) = ~12Ghz ... so the only need to get NAOMI woking with this kind of CPUs is implementing the handling of multi-cpu threading into the emulator that is willing to run this system + using 64 bits enhancements...
You know, that you can't say 3Ghz x4 = 12 Ghz, don't you?
Quotet of wikipedia:
Quote
The proximity of multiple CPU cores on the same die allows the cache coherency circuitry to operate at a much higher clock rate than is possible if the signals have to travel off-chip. Combining equivalent CPUs on a single die significantly improves the performance of cache snoop (alternative: Bus snooping) operations. Put simply, this means that signals between different CPUs travel shorter distances, and therefore those signals degrade less. These higher quality signals allow more data to be sent in a given time period since individual signals can be shorter and do not need to be repeated as often.
So it means, you can't add these clockvalues, they just work together to get better speed and such stuff.
...and knowing ElSemi and his emulation interests, probably there will be a single emu that would do that, since MAME is not going to implement something like this for now afaik.
btw, to get a system emulated there is no need to get it running at 60fps, but IF the users want to enjoy the emulation of a system then we need those 60fps =)
That's why I'm hoping there will be a emu in future that tries to emulate only the 3D arcade cabs with special techniques. I'm still hoping for the release of the Zinc source code, like promised 4 years ago IIRC, it would be a great a start for a 3D emulation beast and could be easily improved by guys with such an interest and coding skill like you, IQ or oopsware!
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Offline CaptainCPS

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 10:29:43 AM »
lol I forgot to put a link for the original news site ^^u...

http://rbelmont.mameworld.info/

SeeYaa!
 :biggrin:

Offline Aquashark

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2008, 02:40:41 AM »
Naomi is almost here. Makaron WIP
http://dknute.livejournal.com/

there's also Demul emulator @ emu-russia which can run CVS1, CVS2, Guilty Gear XX (Reload)
current build has a lot of visual glitches, but the next one will be almost perfect from their screenshots :D

Offline CaptainCPS

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 02:48:55 AM »
Naomi is almost here. Makaron WIP
http://dknute.livejournal.com/

there's also Demul emulator @ emu-russia which can run CVS1, CVS2, Guilty Gear XX (Reload)
current build has a lot of visual glitches, but the next one will be almost perfect from their screenshots :D

OMG! and its running at full speed !!

ThanX for the news! ^^

SeeYaa!
 :biggrin:

Offline 0746

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 05:27:29 AM »
demul website is supposed to be: http://demul.emulation64.com/

Offline Aquashark

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 05:36:26 AM »
if opportunity arises (emu going open source) i so hope NAOMI support will get ported to FBA :D
doesn't matter if in the main FBA or in one of your FBA-E builds, Captain :D

FBA is simply the best \m/

Offline 0746

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 06:09:09 AM »
There is one thing I don't get about dreamcast thou. It's CPU is 200 MHz and 360 MIPS? So it can effectively run more than 1 instructions per clock cycle?

Offline CaptainCPS

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Re: NAOMI it's a WIP for MAME ^^
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 03:53:43 PM »
ElSemi was helping in this NAOMI WIP and some other progress over the time, but I'm still wondering is these achievements over the NAOMI emulation will be added to MAME too (since ElSemi, works sometimes with MAME drivers). If that happens then probabilities would jump from '0' to at least more than '1' for a possible porting NAOMI in the future to other emus...  :smilie: ...

SeeYaa!
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Offline Aquashark

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 08:21:21 AM by Aquashark »