Author Topic: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff  (Read 7779 times)

Offline Squarepusher2

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Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« on: August 14, 2013, 11:22:30 PM »
It seems this guy has taken RetroArch Android, taken the FBA libretro core and has started selling it (obviously against the non-commercial license FBA is tied to).

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.arcadexplay

Since Kev has done such a great job in the past pulling down FBA Android ports that are violating the license, I was hoping you guys could put this in your crosshairs as well.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:32:52 PM by Squarepusher2 »

Offline Squarepusher2

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 11:23:46 PM »
BTW - his other 'app' in there is another ripoff - it is RetroArch with the PCSX ReARMed libretro core that he is also selling. I think PCSX ReARMed, as a derivative of PCSX, is licensed under the GNU GPL though - so I doubt notaz or me can do much about that.

Anyway, the good thing is that with RetroArch continuing to grow and putting all this stuff out for free (like it should have been done in the first place), the incentive to pay for these things is going to be close to zero over time and they will just give up due to no more money rolling in.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:24:57 PM by Squarepusher2 »

Offline Haze

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2013, 02:04:22 PM »
as long as there are idiots willing to pay there will be scum of the earth taking advantage of that.

Mame has always been free, but still today you can find people and places selling it.

The bad thing about these 'lib' type projects (IMHO) is they make it far easier to hide what the emulator is to an unsuspecting buyer, and thus far easier to sell / get repeat sales because people don't realise they can get the same emulator for free.  They often end up stripping the brand identity, which is what the sellers want to do in the first place.



Offline Squarepusher2

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2013, 06:07:58 PM »
as long as there are idiots willing to pay there will be scum of the earth taking advantage of that.

Mame has always been free, but still today you can find people and places selling it.

The bad thing about these 'lib' type projects (IMHO) is they make it far easier to hide what the emulator is to an unsuspecting buyer, and thus far easier to sell / get repeat sales because people don't realise they can get the same emulator for free.  They often end up stripping the brand identity, which is what the sellers want to do in the first place.

I agree with you that dynamically loadable libraries somewhat muddy things from a legal perspective in that it could create the illusion that just because the frontend (RetroArch Android) is GPL, that it's therefore fine to go ahead and sell that with a libretro core which incorporates an emulator that uses a proprietary commercial license.

However, in this case, it's pretty clear which license applies - it's of the libretro core itself in this case - FBA. Also, I feel it is wrong to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that everything that depends on relocatable code therefore creates extra complications and that therefore projects like libretro are undesirable for deveopers to support - hell, if we apply that thinking to its logical conclusion, Android and the way it loads C/C++ "dynamic libraries" would have to go in the first place. JNI is a big fat hack on top of Java that already works like that and which is how every single Android app runs C/C++ code to begin with - so there's no avoiding this in the first place. It just so happened that we already started doing this for libretro/RetroArch before we even started thinking of doing an Android port.

The thing is - no sane person in their right mind is going to keep buying this stuff when they can have something like RetroArch Android with ten or twenty times the cores it has for absolutely free. I have been quite outspoken about wanting to remedy the lousy situation on app stores with regards to this kind of morally questionable behavior and I have had some great success so far in stemming the tide of these things and dissuading users from buying these things. So there has been a backlash against these payware 'rebranded emu ports' growing in large part due to RetroArch Android.

In case my intentions are not clear, they are laid bare here -

http://www.libretro.com/pages/menubar/mission.html

So in the end, unless they are going to add features that users really want to see (and thus put some effort into it - something that has yet to happen really with these guys), they are really fighting a losing battle here. Yes, these spinoffs will pop up, but it's quite easy to file takedown requests with Google when the project in question happens to use a non-commercial proprietary license. In the end, I doubt there is much they can do at this point to keep being competitive to RetroArch - the project keeps growing at an exponential rate, keeps adding new cores, and I feel like most of these guys in it just for the money are not going to really have the time, energy or dedication to fight that. Robert Broglia hasn't released a new payware emu port for a good few 5 months now or more, others don't seem to have done much anymore and so the initial honeymoon period for these guys is coming to an end.

Also - I went to some lengths to emphasise this for the RetroArch Android release - I don't know if it could be made legally binding, but then again none of these non-commercial licenses have ever been tried in court either - so it's all up in the air to begin with:

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While RetroArch might be licensed under the GPL, the emulators themselves might have a 'non-commercial' license or any other proprietary license that forbids selling (such as FBA and Genesis Plus GX). YOU ARE THEREFORE COMPELLED TO OBEY BY THE SPECIFIC LICENSE DEMANDS IMPOSED BY THE EMULATOR CONTAINED IN THIS PACK IF YOU HAVE ANY INTENTION OF 'REUSING' ANY OF THE SPECIFIC CORES CONTAINED IN THIS PACKAGE. YOU COMPLY WITH EACH LICENSE ON A PER-CORE BASIS.

I got some flak over this by some FLOSS guy who said this "limited his freedom" - whatever that means. But his main point of contention seemed to be "I want FBA and Genesis Plus GX removed because this package does not allow me to resell them and because they are bound by 'non-free' licenses". The FLOSS crowd these days is more concerned about petty ripoff artists' ability to rip people off and charge money for stuff they didn't write themselves rather than protecting authors from this kind of app store abuse it seems.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:35:35 PM by Squarepusher2 »

Offline Arcadez

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 10:37:40 PM »
Best remedy i guess is to keep spreading the word that these apps which those muppets are selling can be easily obtained for free

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 02:57:30 PM »
Is this still there? Doesn't seem to be in the UK play store any more at least. Shame if it is, I was beginning to enjoy speaking with Google :)

I do wonder if we should put something in the FBA readme (and maybe on the download page on Barrys site) that says something like

"Want a free version of FBA for Android? Then please use RetroArch <link>"

Is there a version of RetroArch (or FBA in general) available on the Apple store?

Offline Squarepusher2

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Re: Alert to FBA devs - another Play Store ripoff
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 04:08:21 PM »
Is this still there? Doesn't seem to be in the UK play store any more at least. Shame if it is, I was beginning to enjoy speaking with Google :)

Yes, it has been pulled here as well (Netherlands).

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I do wonder if we should put something in the FBA readme (and maybe on the download page on Barrys site) that says something like

"Want a free version of FBA for Android? Then please use RetroArch <link>"

Is there a version of RetroArch (or FBA in general) available on the Apple store?

Regarding iOS -

We haven't tried submitting it to the iOS Store because of Apple's rules regarding emulators. It is pretty much guaranteed that they would never allow it. We'd love for somebody to prove us wrong on this - but I don't think it's worth me getting a $100 developer license to find out that it is indeed futile.

Anyway, registered developers however can take the source along with the cores and compile for themselves - and run them on their non-jailbroken devices. Cores that depend on dynarecs however (like PCSX ReARMed/Desmume/Picodrive) won't run - but thankfully those are only three cores right now out of the 25 or so.

Anyway, I applaud Apple's stance on emulation in a sense - yes, it is shitty that you have to jailbreak your device in order to play emus on it, but if it had been as lax and lenient as the Android Play Store then the entire emu scene would have already been corrupted beyond repair (since iOS is where the real revenue streams are still at compared to Google Play). Blackberry World doesn't allow for emulators in general period - a bit like Apple Store. My hope is just that these guys (Blackberry/Apple) start applying these rules against payware emulators instead of shutting the door on stuff like RetroArch appearing on their stores in general since just denying emulators in general is just a bit too hardball of a stance.

It is available on Cydia but that is a niche anyways - and it is on Cydia for free. There is no 'donationware' version - nothing - no ads - nothing. I don't want a single penny for this stuff. I guess at this point it's more about doing damage to these guys that are trying to make it "trendy" to "just sell emulators and not release any source because that is what everybody else is doing"  - like others are already starting to do. That is a trend that I absolutely loathe seeing happening and I want to nip that in the butt before it starts becoming too bad. Just imagine where we'd be as a scene if MAME had adopted that attitude from the beginning - half of the currently existing emulators probably wouldn't have any interpreters for most of the CPU cores they need to emulate.

I will try getting RetroArch on the Windows Store though for free like the other ports -my Windows RT tablet has yet to arrive this month but that is certainly on the cards. So far there are three emu ports on there in total and they are all free so it's likely they won't kick up a fuss.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 04:19:48 PM by Squarepusher2 »