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Final Burn Alpha => FBA Discussion => Topic started by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 10:53:47 AM

Title: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 10:53:47 AM
http://www.capcomhomearcade.com/home

Any comment on this FBA Team? Seems like capcom are using FB Alpha - isnt that against your liscense agreement?
Title: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Haze on April 16, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
http://capcomhomearcade.com/home

this is supposedly an official Capcom product.

It boasts on the page that they're using FB Alpha

FB Alpha is strictly non-commercial, since
a) it was non-commercial from the start
and
b) it incorporates a lot of code from MAME that was under a non-commercial license at the time (and code retains the license from the version on which it was based)

what is your take on this?

the only way this can be legal is if FBA was fully rolled back to a version before any code from MAME was included (so plain old Final Burn, not FBA) and the original author changed the license, and even then there might be problematic code depending on what cores it uses for things (pretty sure things like the fm core from the period are strict non-commercial)

it's been pointed out to me that Barry is claiming he licensed it out however
https://twitter.com/fbalpha/status/1118201306034974721

but I'm wondering how exactly, unless it's been rewritten basically from scratch, Barry alone is not in a legal position to make that call as there is work from a LOT of other people in there and clearly even some of your own team members are unaware of this.

Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 11:15:19 AM
thats what i'd like to know. My gut tells me capcom just lifted the source
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 16, 2019, 11:31:07 AM
How do you play eco fighters with 1 stick + buttons ? :eek:

It definitely looks like a breach of license to me :
Quote
- You may not sell, lease, rent or otherwise seek to gain monetary profit from FB Alpha;

Good luck sueing them though. Well, at least they mention using FB Alpha, i'm pretty sure their competitor do the same without mentioning it...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tatsuya79 on April 16, 2019, 11:35:20 AM
That's probably why they say they have wifi, to download fba after the purchase.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 16, 2019, 11:40:03 AM
my take: that's awesome!!

Since they're selling their games and the joystick, it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

Did I mention that's awesome!  The fact that Capcom is even mentioning FBAlpha in the first place is super friggin' awesome!

We all "benefit" from Capcom games, they're great - simply put.  If someone creates a fuss over licensing, then all they'd have to do is have their unit connect to the net and download the fbalpha core (for example, when someone starts it for the first time), instead of shipping it with the unit.

did I mention - dude!! awesome!!!

The fact that they mention us at all..  holy shit!! awesome!! :D

best regards,
- dink
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 16, 2019, 11:53:28 AM
While i somehow agree that it's awesome since they mentioned the project and the kit doesn't seem poorly made, be careful that they didn't butchered the emulator, the PS Classic wasn't a good advertizing for PCSX ReARMed.

@dink : check github, i sent some PR for a ngcd issue ;)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on April 16, 2019, 12:05:00 PM
This pile of junk also uses FBA code

https://www.amazon.com/Atari-Flashback-Classic-System-Games-2600/dp/B0111WVWHA

Not much you can do about it though.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on April 16, 2019, 12:17:30 PM
This piece of junk is also using FBA code........

https://www.amazon.com/At-Games-Legends-Flashback-Boom-electronic/dp/B07FK2GQFY

Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: kev on April 16, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
My opinion is it's not legal at all for the reasons Haze listed above.

I've had success in getting rid of the paid FBA ports on Google and Apple app stores by sending a strongly worded email but I suspect this one is going to be harder.  However, this didn't stop the shit NeoGeo X thing from a few years ago, they just ignored my emails. Still won't stop me emailing Koch media and capcom though, at least to see what they say.

Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 12:34:01 PM
My opinion is it's not legal at all for the reasons Haze listed above.

I've had success in getting rid of the paid FBA ports on Google and Apple app stores by sending a strongly worded email but I suspect this one is going to be harder.  However, this didn't stop the shit NeoGeo X thing from a few years ago, they just ignored my emails. Still won't stop me emailing Koch media and capcom though, at least to see what they say.

thats a shame. I suspect they may be selling a box with buttons and a stick and the Wifi is used to download a copy of the emulator as a way to dance around the license issue.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Fulg0re on April 16, 2019, 02:26:16 PM
I will definitely buy me that stick but i will open it and throw the built in junk away.
I will put in 2x DIY Kits hub them and built me just a 2 Player Arcade Board for my Arcade EMU PC ... done;)

Yeah ... thats the way aha aha i like it ...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 16, 2019, 04:11:55 PM
Quote
The 16 pre-installed games are from the original Capcom CPS1 and CPS2 arcade ROMs with emulation provided by FB Alpha, delivering an authentic & accurate arcade experience exclusively for the Capcom Home Arcade.

Damn, for all this time you guys have been working on FBA to deliver an arcade experience exclusively for the Capcom Home Arcade. You've been playing the long game, keeping that secret safe for so long.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: dink on April 16, 2019, 07:01:51 PM
I will definitely buy me that stick but i will open it and throw the built in junk away.
I will put in 2x DIY Kits hub them and built me just a 2 Player Arcade Board for my Arcade EMU PC ... done;)

Yeah ... thats the way aha aha i like it ...

Hahaha yes, I like that idea :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 16, 2019, 10:02:48 PM
edit:the info in this message is apparently wrong.  keep reading down the thread for newer findings....
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 10:35:19 PM
now im really confused

Barry said on twitter - FBAlpha has been licensed by Capcom Home Arcade.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on April 16, 2019, 10:38:30 PM
What the hell Barry?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 16, 2019, 10:49:02 PM
ok, so wow, I'm surprised. disregard  everything I said 3 messages above!!  I eat my words.

But...

Barry, how come we didn't know about this?
and
Barry, you da man!!!

at the same time, strangely :)

best regards,
- dink
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 16, 2019, 10:54:10 PM
link to tweet

https://twitter.com/fbalpha/status/1118201306034974721


Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 17, 2019, 03:38:26 AM
Barry, how come we didn't know about this?
Good question. You'd think he'd at least notify the team / top contributors. At the very least once the whole thing becomes public, in case there was an NDA or something.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 17, 2019, 03:40:30 AM
Barry, how come we didn't know about this?

Good question. You'd think he'd at least notify the team / top contributors. At the very least once the whole thing becomes public, in case there was an NDA or something.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 17, 2019, 04:17:40 AM
Good question. You'd think he'd at least notify the team / top contributors. At the very least once the whole thing becomes public, in case there was an NDA or something.

You can't NDA something that is illegal.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: kev on April 17, 2019, 06:05:54 AM
This is now being sold on Amazon here in the UK. Pretty outrageous. And again I doubt they would give enough of a crap for us to be able to stop them.

In a lot of ways I would have preferred that they just stole the code without telling anyone about it, just like all the other crappy console manufacturers do. If it's a shit port running on an old phone with the FB Alpha name all over it that will be sad, and also the mostly likely scenario.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Haze on April 17, 2019, 07:31:00 AM
Well as a team you need to work out what your position is.

I don't see how Barry can be doing this, having kept the rest of the team seemingly in the dark over it.  It seems literally NO other dev on FBA was aware of this deal.

Even in the 'best case' scenario, where the project has been basically rewritten from scratch by reporting all the components from compatible versions etc. this isn't something to keep the rest of the team in the dark over, it's still something where you'd first do public consultations to see if you can get people to agree new licenses etc. before going that route. 

Barry makes it sound like he approved the deal somehow.

You (as the rest of the development team) need to be asking him how he has managed that.  At this stage the majority of FBA, including your core / framework code has had submissions to it that would have been made under a non-commercial license (since that's what the existing code was, and new submissions have to be compatible with existing code licenses) and also has taken code from projects under non-commercial licenses; one person cannot overrule that and simply change the license.

From where I'm sitting this is very much NOT how you do software licensing, NOT how you work with an existing team, definitely NOT how you do PR, and overall this does NOT seem like it can be legal.

I've been generally supportive of FBA as I feel it offers a better alternative than older versions of MAME due to being actively developed and therefore benefiting from new discoveries etc., but this throws your entire project into limbo.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Fulg0re on April 17, 2019, 08:06:45 AM
This is seriously the biggest fail I ve ever noticed.
How embarrassing. Well to Programm or creat emulators were and won't be illegal. Also to use it as long as you dump your own pcbs etc. Pp. But in this case capcom stole the code of the idea and workload of someone other. If the creator of FBA would have registered some kind of patent it would not be easy as it is actually. So to get a patent for an creation which has been found in the past and want to reach an penalty for an stolen code under commercial usage won't be possible. That's what I found in the web regarding the misuse of someones idea / copyright.... Very bad...

Aghh one more thing

I really do love capcom since way over 30 years. This is fucking embarising that a company which makes a fucking bunch of money every year that they have to steal such tuff and make money. Also sad that enough will going to hype this system and celebrate capcom. I am really disappointed
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 17, 2019, 08:19:28 AM
That's probably why they say they have wifi, to download fba after the purchase.

FWIW that wouldn't fly in a court of law, at least not if the machine is locked down to running that software rather than just being a generic PC open to you installing anything (people hacking it later doesn't count)

It's still an integral part of the package (they're even advertising it as such) and what would basically be a day-0 'firmware update' to provide the advertised functionality doesn't change that.

This is 100% commercial use.

If it was simply a joystick on which you could install some emulators of your own choosing if you wanted, sure, it would be fine, but with the product here, even if they go the 'wifi download' route you're forced to either accept that option or have what is basically a large paperweight without any of the advertised features.

This isn't cool, this is the kind of thing the community will likely crucify you for.

(the Chinese bootleggers do get away with this more easily as those things typically ARE just open systems, where it's entirely up to you what you actually do with them and the games, emulators etc. shown are just examples)
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: dink on April 17, 2019, 08:48:48 AM
It doesn't bother me enough to even care.  I'll tell you why...
Anyone who has roms / other companies IP on their system without licensing them, be it to emulate them or play them - that has anything to say about licensing at all.. is a hypocrite.  It's as simple as that.

Fulg0re, you've got it all wrong, I think you need to re-read what is going on here buddy.

One thing I know for a fact, that will never change:
FBAlpha is a great project, and regardless of any backseat drama, I still work on it and enjoy working on it for friends and fans. 

best regards,
- dink
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Haze on April 17, 2019, 09:11:32 AM
The message you're giving out here to any potential contributor to FBA is that their will is going to be ignored, and you simply don't care.  You're basically saying the license they submit code to you under does not matter.

That is how you kill a project and get it blacklisted everywhere.

If you're serious about working in the software industry it's the kind of project you can't be seen as contributing to as well as most professional software development studios have VERY strict rules and regulations when it comes to this kind of thing, so showing that you're willing to flout them so flagrantly counts against you.  If they associate you in real life with your username, or worse, you've stated you've worked on a project that gets flagged as ignoring licenses in this way then even in real life you can find yourself blacklisted (I've had to help with this very process for a company in the past and people have been rejected simply for working on improperly licensed software)  This alone is enough to put off new contributors to your project.

This is not just fun and games, it's a serious business I'm afraid.

You might wonder why this is, but it is absolutely vital to a professional software development studio that their in-house codebases don't become tainted by software that hasn't been properly licensed.  The worst thing a developer can do is just lift code from somewhere without looking properly at a license, or be willing to completely ignore it.  Cleaning this up can cost hundreds of thousands, enough to bankrupt a small studio several times over, with the cost of cleaning it up multiplying almost exponentially depending on how much further code was based on that tainted code.  No reputable company wants to be involved with somebody who has shown a willingness to introduce such issues and ignore them.

One of the issues is that FBA did originally come from when people weren't quite so well informed on software licensing, and if anything you should be working to clean that up, not dismissing the problem.

What you're saying here is highly offensive to those who have tried to work hard to clean up the licensing situation and offer legal alternatives.


Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: dink on April 17, 2019, 09:20:21 AM
DRAHHHMAAAA *insert pink gay hand image here*
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Fulg0re on April 17, 2019, 09:27:41 AM
Hi there

Sorry that for my missunderstanding something wrong.
I really celebrating and enjoying playing my arcades thanx
to FBA and its great performance. I realy appreciate your
work. I am not disappointed from you guys... More from
capcom. I think this should be clear now. Please keep up
your great work!!
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: iq_132 on April 17, 2019, 09:29:33 AM
I'm in the strongly against camp on this as well. I am very against someone profiting from my work unless it's me, of course. I have never accepted payment for my emulation work.
I'm considering pulling out all of the code I wrote and ported for FBA-this would effectively make FBA back into just a CPS and Neo-Geo emulator. :(
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: kev on April 17, 2019, 09:56:36 AM
I'm in the strongly against camp on this as well. I am very against someone profiting from my work unless it's me, of course. I have never accepted payment for my emulation work.
I'm considering pulling out all of the code I wrote and ported for FBA-this would effectively make FBA back into just a CPS and Neo-Geo emulator. :(

Yeah. I do remember back in the day that the PSP port that someone was taking "donations" for put me off working on FB Alpha for a number of years, and it was a big part of my life before that point.

I also agree with what Haze said above re: the licencing and code situation. It's not good practice from Capcom's point of view and also probably not that great for any of us professionally at a certain level. I do have faith that this will get resolved to some degree though.
Title: Re: Capcom 'Home Arcade'
Post by: Arcadez on April 17, 2019, 09:57:41 AM
I'm in the strongly against camp on this as well. I am very against someone profiting from my work unless it's me, of course. I have never accepted payment for my emulation work.
I'm considering pulling out all of the code I wrote and ported for FBA-this would effectively make FBA back into just a CPS and Neo-Geo emulator. :(

Yeah i feel ya on this, i contribute to project which some bampots are making money from due to leeching the source be it selling Rpi's with it
already installed or companies shoehorning it into terrible retro consoles, like you i've never accepted or sought payment and although it does
annoy me the thought of people profiting off the back of my graft i take the view what can ya do exactly once something is out in the wild
it cant be dragged back inside.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 17, 2019, 10:35:18 AM
You can't NDA something that is illegal.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it can't happen, right?

Edit: That thread merge was a bit confusing.

I'm in the strongly against camp on this as well. I am very against someone profiting from my work unless it's me, of course. I have never accepted payment for my emulation work.
I'm considering pulling out all of the code I wrote and ported for FBA-this would effectively make FBA back into just a CPS and Neo-Geo emulator. :(

I can understand your feelings, but then again, they're essentially selling a CPS emulator here, aren't they? That said, I don't know how much you worked on the CPS side, but no doubt it benefited from the work of many people, so it's still making money off other people's work... I wonder how much Barry got out of this.

I get dink's point about the hypocrisy of having ROMs or any copyrighted content you didn't pay for, and at the same time cry about this being illegal... but then again, if licenses don't matter, maybe FBA shouldn't have one at all, or one that says "do whatever you want".

Legality aside, I think it's bad that Barry kept this a secret from everyone. From what I can see, iq_132 and dink have been keeping this project alive for a while now (+ barbudreadmon on the libretro side), and it'd be a shame if this results in contributors losing motivation or abandoning FBA.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 17, 2019, 07:01:38 PM
Stifu, I will always keep this project alive, regardless of what happens.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Bad Dude on April 17, 2019, 07:44:12 PM
Stifu, I will always keep this project alive, regardless of what happens.

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/0e7fd9fa3e01c7a56b527cd65b61ad08/tumblr_n6vipgi8c61t2ahl9o1_400.gif)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on April 17, 2019, 11:32:38 PM
Website is mostly removed. Wonder if they're reviewing the licensing.
http://www.capcomhomearcade.com/home
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 18, 2019, 01:13:10 AM
May it be involved a not official FBA release, like FBA shuffle (NB: this is just a speculation) ?

In any case, at this point, a direct answer of Barry is needed, if only out of respect of the other FBA Devs!

PS: a "simple" observation... probably, without the various free contributions of iq_132 and dink, FBA would be "dead" years ago!
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tunes0710 on April 18, 2019, 04:27:02 AM
Looks like the website is back up and running now.
Still including the FB Alpha licensing.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on April 18, 2019, 12:39:00 PM
The website had a problem yesterday before it went down. My uBlock origin counter was spinning around like the wheels in a gambling machine. Either they had runaway scripts or they'd been hacked.

Whatever the problem was, it's been fixed now.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 20, 2019, 07:05:32 AM
I found an article in DDAY.it (an italian online magazine) where is pointed out as the use of FB Alpha in "Capcom Home Arcade" it's a unfair and illegal "ploy" !

https://www.dday.it/redazione/30616/emulatore-capcom-home-arcade-fb-alpha-licenza
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Fulg0re on April 20, 2019, 10:10:38 AM
Maybe something wo do not know 🤔
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on April 21, 2019, 04:33:29 AM
I agree with dink all his drama about licensing is not the issue(completely) its a broken trust issue of a personal nature within the group  if anything.

The issue to me is simple a bunch of guys got together made something useful and good the general consensus is  the project didnt want  commercial  cashing in. If everyone's on the same page life is good if someone gets greedy things like this happen all we can do is see what happens when the dust settles.

Money turns everything good into something none workable that why patreons rips groups apart as well when the money just comes in and its not accounted for in the disguise we have server costs ect.

I do hope this project survives this. Stand alone emulators are always the way to go for me when I want things work like they should.   
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 21, 2019, 05:52:26 AM
It's not just contributions by active developers, but also stuff copied from other projects. Take for example Musashi(the 68K CPU core), it clearly has a non-commercial license and requires permission for relicensing: https://github.com/barry65536/FBAlpha/blob/master/src/cpu/m68k/m68kcpu.c
Now, you could close your eyes on this and think: but the one in MAME is BSD3 so it should be fine. But if you take all source packages in account, there's YM2151 as well, which is GPL nowadays(incompatible with FBA's license, unlike BSD3).

Trust between Barry and other developers isn't the only issue here. The license given to Koch(Capcom's subcontractor) is clearly bogus. Koch now knowlingly has an illegal license, and who knows what they will do. Will Koch pretend to not know about it, and lose reputation(and Capcom's too). Does Koch need to renegotiate a license and lose time and money? Did Barry breach their contract? Very troublesome to be in his shoes.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on April 21, 2019, 08:07:32 AM
I not really one for debating this pointless repetitive debates about licenses personally it just control of someone else's intellectual rights emulation through software in this case.

I would be a hypocritical if i was moral outraged by a license agreement  and ignored intellectual rights. Thats just me personally the biggest outrage to me here is someones greed without including others not licenses that arent worth the paper they are not written on. Mame is fully commercial im pretty sure its including the same 68k. The license for it is here

as for the 68k license is here

https://github.com/kstenerud/Musashi/blob/master/readme.txt
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 21, 2019, 08:16:02 AM
Yup, the current version of Musashi can be sold. The version used in FBA can not. My point in the 1st half of my forum post is that if you apply that (wrong)logic to all of FBA source code taken from other projects, you need to include Jarek's YM2151 as well. That one is currently GPL and means that FBA would need to be GPL as well(which it clearly isn't).
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on April 21, 2019, 09:16:04 AM
its only wrong if they didnt update it to the latest version and that could be argued with the ym2151 as well. They could say it taken from the latest mame source and reworked since its free for commercial use. So either way it a lawyers dream or anyone looking to point fingers and be right.

Licence agreement  isint clear cut and you only have one case scenario to suit your needs not the facts. Have you seen the agreement and source code.

I would love not to debate this its the same ole same ill just leave it like i have from the start that i personally feel for the team. About the rest well you have to have clear facts and what source is being used and what source has been modified before posting claims of fact.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 21, 2019, 09:25:25 AM
You're right, we haven't seen the license agreement. Perhaps Barry rewrote half of FBA for this occasion(farfetched). Perhaps he did ask around and received permission from all copyright holders. But with FBA devs right in this forum saying they didn't receive any information beforehand, and iq_132 saying he would not have given permission, it doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 21, 2019, 01:48:43 PM
Legal or illegal, lawful or unlawful, right or wrong... in any case (IMHO) Barry, with his silence, does not look good!
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PM
yeah that really is the biggest issue here.

the first ANYBODY seems to have heard of this is the announcement.

suppose Barry did rewrite all of this, you'd start by working out what you actually needed to rewrite and what you could get permission for, that would involve talking to people.

you'd at the very least let your team know your intentions (especially if the plan was the re-license the project going forward) so that they could choose to rewrite / remove their code in preparation (because even if all those parts have been rewritten, they can't be merged back into the rest of FBA which is inherently incompatible right now, so even just calling that version FBA is a misnomer)

you'd also at least let the rest of your team know, so that when these questions inevitably came up they would have answers, instead of it being a complete surprise to them.  all this discussion should have happened months ago, not after an announcement with Barry going into hiding.

it's surprising, because I really thought Barry had a far better grasp on these things, and I had a lot of respect for him, but this is at the very least a complete PR disaster.

apparently they've rewritten some of the text to not mention FBA now, but I wonder what the chances are that as soon as somebody hacks one (which is basically guaranteed) they still find it's FBA derived anyway.


Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on April 21, 2019, 08:30:56 PM
The site still mentions FB Alpha as it has always done.
Quote
The 16 pre-installed games are from the original Capcom CPS1 and CPS2 arcade ROMs with emulation provided by FB Alpha, delivering an authentic & accurate arcade experience exclusively for the Capcom Home Arcade.

I'm not exactly one to talk about licenses and whatnot, but with the project lead going rogue, and breaking his own rules, it puts the entire project into legal limbo. It no longer has a leg to stand on when the Chinese derivatives do whatever they like. Not only that, but with Barry no longer around, you won't be able to make any more official releases. Legally, this project has nowhere to go, except by doing what MAME did (as Haze has explained).

However, I know that some people do not care about licenses and unenforceable legalities, and would like to continue on regardless, just like the bootleggers do. I wish you all the luck with that.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on April 22, 2019, 05:10:16 AM
I'm not sure I understand everything perfectly (language) but unfortunately fba is looted just like mame for ages, the real difference (and what shock me most here) is the lack of barry's response. I hope all this has a clear explanation.
All the best to every one.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 22, 2019, 05:54:53 AM
apparently they've rewritten some of the text to not mention FBA now, but I wonder what the chances are that as soon as somebody hacks one (which is basically guaranteed) they still find it's FBA derived anyway.
FB Alpha is still mentioned at http://www.capcomhomearcade.com/home
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 22, 2019, 06:03:37 AM
FB Alpha is still mentioned at http://www.capcomhomearcade.com/home

indeed it is, looks like the text might have gone through a few revisions?  at least elsewhere it was said the FBAlpha mention was removed, but now it's right there..
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Bad Dude on April 22, 2019, 10:02:38 AM
I love the old CAPCOM classic games, but they did not respect the programmers when they released this product. The rule is clear:
FBA is not marketable, including all codes and effort made by programmers (dink, iq and so on), including the MAME devs.
They can not do this!  :mad:
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 22, 2019, 10:21:03 AM
indeed it is, looks like the text might have gone through a few revisions?  at least elsewhere it was said the FBAlpha mention was removed, but now it's right there..

the site seemed like it was undergoing maintenance for about 8 hours on Thursday last week , but i confirmed the wording regarding FB Alpha has not changed
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 22, 2019, 10:25:55 AM
@Bad Dude: Koch Media went by the book: they asked permission and received it from FBA's main developeradministrator.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 22, 2019, 10:35:19 AM
side note : Final Burn Dave posted on my video asking if he could get in contact with any FB Alpha devs

(https://i.imgur.com/5WqT4MH.png)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 22, 2019, 10:56:21 AM
lantus please direct him here, he really needs to know what is going on before agreeing to any licensing.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 22, 2019, 02:44:00 PM
It also confirms that Dave wasn't asked about this too.

So yeah, that basically 100% confirms that Barry did this without any permission from anybody, not even the minimal of effort to try and look legit.

I hope Dave is aware that at this point all he can relicense is the exact code he wrote himself in the original FB too.

Since FBA is a fork, he can't directly relicense FBA, even if he were to relicense FB, you'd have to create a new fork from his version and rewrite (or gain permission for) everything that's been added on top of that including core changes, ui changes, drivers etc. (and not just copy from the existing FBA code, because that would still be under an incompatible license)

Also as hap points out, the original FB contains code not written by Dave in the first place too anyway so his relicensing options even then are limited.

Licensing is a bitch, but if you want a legitimate product you have to do it properly.

Seems nobody at all bothered to follow due process here, not Barry, not Koch Media, nobody.

The way this has been done also IMHO makes Barry's position in the project untenable.  Nobody outside of a select few is going to trust his word on licensing again, even if you do try to say you've been through the whole process.  You might want to consider a shuffle around of who maintains what (webpages, releases etc.) or the public image of the project is going to suffer.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 22, 2019, 02:58:06 PM
It also confirms that Dave wasn't asked about this too.

So yeah, that basically 100% confirms that Barry did this without any permission from anybody, not even the minimal of effort to try and look legit.

I hope Dave is aware that at this point all he can relicense is the exact code he wrote himself in the original FB too.

Since FBA is a fork, he can't directly relicense FBA, even if he were to relicense FB, you'd have to create a new fork from his version and rewrite (or gain permission for) everything that's been added on top of that including core changes, ui changes, drivers etc. (and not just copy from the existing FBA code, because that would still be under an incompatible license)  You'd also have to make sure any additional libraries you depend on are under compatible licenses etc.

Also as hap points out, the original FB contains code not written by Dave in the first place too so his relicensing options even then are limited without removing all of that and anything that could be considered a derivative work of it.

Licensing is a bitch, but if you want a legitimate product you have to do it properly yet in this case it seems nobody at all bothered to follow due process here, not Barry, not Koch Media, nobody.  Even Capcom must take some blame too if they're going to allow this to hit market with their name on it.

The way this has been done also IMHO makes Barry's position in the project untenable.  Nobody outside of a select few is going to trust his word on licensing again, even if you do try to say you've been through the whole process.  You might want to consider a shuffle around of who maintains what (webpages, releases etc.) or the public image of the project is going to suffer.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on April 23, 2019, 04:50:53 AM
Interesting that my post along similar lines was deleted without explanation.

EDIT: And now it's back? Weird.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on April 23, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
this isint the first time fba alpha and mame code where in breached atari flashback legends console done it no one said boo.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 23, 2019, 01:54:20 PM
I don't remember anything with Atari Flashback, but there's been plenty of boohissing every time an emulator project license is violated by a company. This time it's a bit more difficult since the FBA project lead is doing the part. And the rest of the FBA team aren't exactly enjoying it.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 23, 2019, 03:16:55 PM
this isint the first time fba alpha and mame code where in breached atari flashback legends console done it no one said boo.

The difference is that ATGames just used it without asking anyone if they could. Same with HyperKin and that dumpster fire NeoGeo X.

Capcom proudly announced it on their press release/website.


Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 23, 2019, 08:07:39 PM
The difference is that ATGames just used it without asking anyone if they could. Same with HyperKin and that dumpster fire NeoGeo X.

dumpster fire, that's hilerious :)   In the case of NeoGeo X.. I wonder how they ended up breaking our emulation so badly?  :p
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 24, 2019, 01:22:08 AM
Capcom proudly announced it on their press release/website.

As far as I know, it's not a real Capcom product, but a licensed product made by Koch Media... in any case, they're treating the copyright issues (at least with regard to the FB Alpha) with "great shallowness" !

PS: as grant2258 wrote, this isn't the first time that a company uses a software in an irregular manner, however this time it was done "very obviously" !  :confused:
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 24, 2019, 04:12:02 AM
As far as I know, it's not a real Capcom product, but a licensed product made by Koch Media... in any case, they're treating the copyright issues (at least with regard to the FB Alpha) with "great shallowness" !

PS: as grant2258 wrote, this isn't the first time that a company uses a software in an irregular manner, however this time it was done "very obviously" !  :confused:

Well Koch Media probably feel they can because Barry announced that they had licensed it.

The problem here is that Barry had absolutely no authority to do that, so the product isn't legal.

I guess Koch Media, and Capcom by association are willing to take the reputation hit and hoping people just take Barry to court over it instead, which is about the kind of shitty behaviour you'd expect.

Make no mistake tho, a member of your team created this mess, and must accept as much responsibility as anybody else.  FBA has sent out a clear message to all potential devs that the team simply don't care about the license under which they're been given code (or have taken code and used) and will happily just ignore it if somebody comes calling.  To anybody who does care about these things (the majority of the development community) your project is basically now dead.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 24, 2019, 06:00:30 AM
Right, now with dayvee basically indicating he didn't hear of this, the chance that this license change was done legitimally is becoming infinitely small. For those that weren't around back then: The CPS1/2 driver was written way back in 2001 for the original Final Burn, a large portion of the source is still intact in FBA.

The only soothing factor remaining is whether Barry did this behind everyone's back on purpose or not. I think there's a good chance with him being the project admin thinking that he's the complete owner of all of FBA and had the right to do anything with it, and had no malicious intent. And now either he took a badly timed vacation, or is hiding from the unwanted pressure, escaping the bad situation he's in.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 24, 2019, 06:36:29 AM
Make no mistake tho, a member of your team created this mess, and must accept as much responsibility as anybody else.  FBA has sent out a clear message to all potential devs that the team simply don't care about the license under which they're been given code (or have taken code and used) and will happily just ignore it if somebody comes calling.

Barry is the only one responsible of this mess, afaik no other dev agreed, so blaming the issue on the project & team as a whole seems wrong. Also, considering that he might have severed the link between fbalpha.com and neo-source.com the day of the announcement (am i the only one who noticed the disappearance of the forum link since then ?), imho he decided to follow his own path and doesn't care about the other devs.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 24, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
Barry is the only one responsible of this mess, afaik no other dev agreed, so blaming the issue on the project & team as a whole seems wrong. Also, considering that he might have severed the link between fbalpha.com and neo-source.com the day of the announcement (am i the only one who noticed the disappearance of the forum link since then ?), imho he decided to follow his own path and doesn't care about the other devs.

Then you probably need to take the project forward with a new name, new domain, new social media account and and new person in charge of releases? or take control of the domain etc. (but I guess since FBA isn't trademarked AFAIK, there's no grounds for doing that)

After that, make an official statement regarding this, and why the FBA name etc. has been abandoned, and how you plan on proceeding.  Clarify the license, rebuild confidence, maybe look to move forward with a view to re-licensing the proper way (as MAME did) or stick firmly with what you have if you feel FBA is a good home for people who want to code things that can't be used in a commercial setting. 

It sounds like the interest in relicensing properly is there, but it would be a complex process and you're bound to have some developers that either say no, or you can't contact (or can't fully trace the origins code back to, eg. a lot of submissions from China and the like) so rewriting some bits from scratch is inevitable.  For MAME derived code it might be easier to just scrap what you have and report from current once you've relicensed.

The problem is of course, people know the FBA name, and some, oblivious to all of this, will continue to search out FBA rather than whatever you decide on.

Hiding / removing the forum link, which is basically the link to the actual development community behind the project, is very suspicious behaviour tho, yes.


Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tatsuya79 on April 24, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
Or just cut out the individual that acted on his own, don't depend on him anymore as he made it clear he didn't care about the community and having the minimum of honest discussion.
That's what I would do, move the github, website where he wouldn't have admin right and not care about stuff like name or anything else, continue just the same without him.

...but I'm not a dev here and probably shouldn't say that, sorry if that's unwelcome.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 24, 2019, 08:38:38 AM
Or just cut out the individual that acted on his own, don't depend on him anymore as he made it clear he didn't care about the community and having the minimum of honest discussion.
That's what I would do, move the github, website where he wouldn't have admin right and not care about stuff like name or anything else, continue just the same without him.

...but I'm not a dev here and probably shouldn't say that, sorry if that's unwelcome.

Problem is he controls the 'official' site and twitter account right now afaik.

Claims have been made in the name of FBA.  Trying to continue with the same name would be messy as you could potentially end up with 2 pieces of software being released with the same name, different content, different license claims etc.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 24, 2019, 10:15:50 AM
Problem is he controls the 'official' site and twitter account right now afaik.

I know I am being naive based on the lack of response from kochmedia and other parties, but I am still trying to make those claims bogus. Until the weird looking thing is released with FBA on it, nothing has happened at this point beyond a very bad PR fuck-up by Barry.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on April 24, 2019, 10:45:33 AM
So we will have to expect a FBG(amma) if barry does not speak ?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on April 24, 2019, 10:55:05 AM
So we will have to expect a FBG(amma) if barry does not speak ?
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 24, 2019, 11:10:13 AM
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.

Since it was presumably named after the Steet Fighter Alpha games, might make sense to use something based on the Japanese name 'Zero' rather than another greek letter.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on April 24, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
FBZ, nice idea  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 24, 2019, 11:20:28 AM
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.

I'd say at this point don't just make it a possible fork. FBFork. Finalburn Cutlery? I can't imagine anyone would put that on a product lol.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tatsuya79 on April 24, 2019, 11:26:14 AM
FBSavior.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 24, 2019, 12:07:10 PM
I know I am being naive based on the lack of response from kochmedia and other parties, but I am still trying to make those claims bogus. Until the weird looking thing is released with FBA on it, nothing has happened at this point beyond a very bad PR fuck-up by Barry.

It's right give "the benefit of the doubt"... but the various clues are not in favour of Barry (at the top his "silence")...  :S 
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 24, 2019, 12:23:48 PM
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.

If we are to remain in the context of "Greek alphabet" FinalBurn Delta (FBΔ) or FinalBurn Omega (FBΩ) could be decent solutions...  :smilie:
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Fulg0re on April 24, 2019, 01:17:49 PM
FAB

Final Arcade Blast 👌
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 24, 2019, 04:18:32 PM
If we are to remain in the context of "Greek alphabet" FinalBurn Delta (FBΔ) or FinalBurn Omega (FBΩ) could be decent solutions...  :smilie:

I'd avoid fancy acronym symbols if we want everyone to easily adopt the new name. FinalBurn Zero / FBZ sounds great to me.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on April 24, 2019, 06:25:01 PM
Ya know when the accused doesn't take the stand to put his or her side of things most people then assume they're guilty, kinda like the
situation we have here only one guy can provide the answers and as yet they're not forthcoming.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on April 24, 2019, 06:27:00 PM
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.

As Fleetwood Mac once said "You can go your own way"
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on April 24, 2019, 06:29:57 PM
Funny that you mention that, I was researching Greek letters for a possible FBA fork name. We'll see.

Ach just do what we did and stick a year on the end of it............

Final Burn 2019 :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 25, 2019, 01:07:25 AM
Dare I say not include FinalBurn in the new name.  People that follow emulation will follow the new project.  Sorry for the long post and hope you understand where I'm coming from. 

Hi Biff2k,
an opinion/advice is always welcome, as far as I'm concerned ! :)
IMHO "FinalBurn" is a kind of "brand" (for several years now) and not include it in a new hypothetical name would be likely to lead to confusion and be counterproductive...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 25, 2019, 01:32:31 AM
Ach just do what we did and stick a year on the end of it............

Final Burn 2019 :)

And you'd rename the site, repository etc every year? :p
That doesn't sound good.

Since Haze said "Alpha" might refer to Street Fighter Alpha... How about FinalBurn 3rd Degree? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on April 25, 2019, 02:18:21 AM
I'm using LibreOffice and LineageOS as examples because their original projects (...)

Yes, but for LibreOffice, the "office" word was kept, and "libre" is an adjective along the lines of "free" and "open", so there was some kind of continuity in the naming.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 25, 2019, 04:58:57 AM
Thanks for responding!  I was afraid to make that post because I'm not involved in the project and felt I shouldn't express my opinion, but I honestly feel the contributors to this project are very friendly, helpful and something like this shouldn't have happened.   Like some, I'm already assuming the worse case scenario because of how it was announced and was done behind the backs of the contributors to the project.

You're correct the name "FinalBurn" is a brand, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes regarding the software name, logo, trademark, etc.  I wouldn't' want some uncertainly lurking around the corner if a fork with the name "FinalBurn"  in the title actually happens. This would be an exciting opportunity for the contributors to give this fork a new identity and to leave behind a brand that has been hurt by the recent developments.  I'm using LibreOffice and LineageOS as examples because their original projects  were faced with negative events that forced them to fork and with that, they created new branding.  There definitely was confusion at first, but now those projects are well known.

You're welcome! :) This is a "open forum" and anyone can say the personal opinion (obviously with respect for DEVs and other members)... ;)

Your thought is potentially correct, but "FinalBurn" is a brand connected (since many years) with a free and not commercial emulator, so an appropriation attempt could lead legal and counterproductive disputes.
Other thing, probably for a trading company register a trademark well known by the expert users (users which can't be easily "deceived") and not by the casual users, it's not a productive action... so I don't think it can be a "main danger".
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 25, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
I apologize for chiming in on the recent events as I am only a fan and end-user of FB Alpha.  I felt the need to make a post because although I'm not involved in the project whatsoever, I feel the people involved on making this great software have been wronged and clearly disrespected.  I work in IT and although my opinion is generalized, I feel like as whole, there is toxicity when it comes to software dev and open source projects.

I also noticed the removed link to this forum on the FB Alpha homepage and clearly the lack of response from the project lead clearly says it all.  If I was involved in this project, I would be super pissed and not because of money that may potentially involved, but the trust has been broken. 

Just my opinion, move on, its clear what's going on.  Reminds me of the whole OpenOffice/Libre Office and CyanogenMod/LineageOS situation.  Not moving on will hurt the brand and will prevent future contributions to this project.  Dare I say not include FinalBurn in the new name.  People that follow emulation will follow the new project.  Sorry for the long post and hope you understand where I'm coming from. 

Best of luck to however you proceed.

Hello strange Koch Media bot person. Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: KaaMoS on April 27, 2019, 04:50:09 PM
Hello, friends.
So sad to read all of this 😔

However, you're still here, and have the brains to perfectly overcome this, the passion you've shown to us all these years is a prove of that.
I think this is a good time to take in hands what is actually yours.

Since the most of you where involved from the beginning, would be good to reflect that... I don't know if Neo-Source name is kept, since it's still a reference to FB Alpha.

About the fork name, I'd go with something like "Zero" or "Omega", but something like "Final Burn Origins" could be better. It resets all this "alpha" era to the beginning of all, where you started to fork FB. No mention about future role it could have if people tries to search from sites like Google. 😁

Friends, keep strong and firm.
We'll be here with you.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 28, 2019, 05:48:21 AM
Ouch!  That kinda hurt :-(  Long time into emulation back in the Zophar Domain days.  These events really bothered me and felt a need to speak.  I want this project to thrive because it's brought me so much joy and I love reading when someone finally figures out some technical challenge and making it work.  I want nothing but success for you guys and don't want negative circumstances to affect you.  "FinalBurn" is a brand and if you know you can move forward using that name in a fork, then go for it.  Maybe consult with someone on MAME on how to proceed with the licenses to make sure some jerk doesn't come claim its theirs.  Again, unless what is happening is only known to you guys, it appears things are being done behind your backs and who knows what else is brewing.

Peace and <3

In that case I completely apologise. Sorry.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kathysrazor on April 29, 2019, 02:54:21 AM
This is 100% commercial use.

That's one of the least problems with the FBAlpha licensing, to be honest.

FBAlpha has GPL code in it.  Only the original authors can relicense it, and until they do, that GPL code can't be combined to create a derivative work unless that code is with a GPL-compatible license. 

The best hope of salvaging it is by abusing the clause that says "Due to the use of MAME code in FB Alpha, FB Alpha is also subject to the terms of the MAME license." (which lets you argue that the whole thing is GPL), but that doesn't solve the issue of the code with limitations on commercial use that was not contributed by the original author (like Dave and FinalBurn).

Put simply, the only license that FBAlpha could legally be distributed under would be the GPL, but the GPL doesn't work given some of the code in there.  Basically, the whole project is a mess.

The restrictions on commercial use simply don't fly with GPL code.  Given the mismatch of licenses, the only real option to make this legal would be to either re-write or contact the authors to relicense the SP0256, i8x41, arm7, mcs51, NMOS 6502 illegal opcodes, 65sc02, 2a03, and other drivers.  In theory, one could just remove all the MAME and GPL parts, but then all the "non-commercial" parts would still apply.

It's a real mess, and licensing has been neglected for some time.  I attempted to post an issue about it on GitHub, but Barry just turned the issues off completely shortly after I did.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kathysrazor on April 29, 2019, 02:56:42 AM
I wish I was knowledgeable on licensing in this regard as I'd love to help you as I've seen some crazy stuff in a professional setting when it comes to software audits.

I'm the CEO for a company that sells commercial licensing for open source software.  While I'd only be speaking for myself, I'd be glad to answer questions you have about open source intellectual property.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 29, 2019, 04:45:36 AM
@kathysrazor Afaik, there is no GPL code in fbalpha, all code ported from MAME is from a MAME version prior to their migration to GPL license, and as such is subject to the license at that time, not the new one. license.txt is probably unclear about this though.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 29, 2019, 08:18:13 AM
It's a real mess, and licensing has been neglected for some time.  I attempted to post an issue about it on GitHub, but Barry just turned the issues off completely shortly after I did.

Could you post the text of the issue here, or is it lost to the very annoying github issue disabling?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 29, 2019, 09:02:23 AM
Final Burn Alpha's code copied or ported from MAME is within the bounds of licensing. The old cores and drivers are from MAME before it changed to open source at version 0.174, see MAME's old license here: https://github.com/mamedev/historic-mame/blob/master/docs/license.txt
MAME's license-change is not retroactive. MAME 0.173 and older are still under the previous MAME license.

New code ports to FBA are fine as long as the original MAME driver is BSD3. FBA devs need to be careful not to port GPL-licensed chip emulations or drivers. Off the top of my head, the only time this occured is with Monkey Magic:
MAME: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/mmagic.cpp
FBA: https://github.com/barry65536/FBAlpha/blob/master/src/burn/drv/pre90s/d_mmagic.cpp

Permission must be obtained before porting GPL code to FBA.
Regarding mmagic, I asked Dirk a moment ago and he says he's ok with it.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on April 29, 2019, 09:18:03 AM
Thanks hap :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 29, 2019, 09:46:26 AM
Final Burn Alpha's code copied or ported from MAME is within the bounds of licensing. The old cores and drivers are from MAME before it changed to open source at version 0.174, see MAME's old license here: https://github.com/mamedev/historic-mame/blob/master/docs/license.txt
MAME's license-change is not retroactive. MAME 0.173 and older are still under the previous MAME license.

New code ports to FBA are fine as long as the original MAME driver is BSD3. FBA devs need to be careful not to port GPL-licensed chip emulations or drivers. Off the top of my head, the only time this occured is with Monkey Magic:
MAME: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/mmagic.cpp
FBA: https://github.com/barry65536/FBAlpha/blob/master/src/burn/drv/pre90s/d_mmagic.cpp

Permission must be obtained before porting GPL code to FBA.
Regarding mmagic, I asked Dirk a moment ago and he says he's ok with it.

Thanks for confirming that Hap.

So my opinion and solely my opinion only, based on the facts that I have and my understanding of the said facts, just for any Capcom or Koch Media employees or representatives that might be reading this forum, that means that any code that is in FB Alpha (or FBA, or even Finalburn) that has been taken from MAME under that old licence cannot also be used in a commercial product as MAME was also non-commercial at that point, at least as I understand it. I would also assume that any code taken from MAME post 0.173 and attached or used in a derived FB Alpha in a commercial environment would also cause a lot of problems from a licence point of view as the licences are very much not compatible, and FB Alpha would also still have the VERY CLEAR non-commercial clause in the licence.



Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 29, 2019, 10:06:41 AM
Yes, that was already clear from the start. Barry had to either ask permission from all contributors, or rewrite the source. The chance of that having happened is about as large as me going on a date with Audrey Tautou.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on April 29, 2019, 10:29:43 AM
Imho, the spelling of this sentence in license.txt is confusing : "FB Alpha would not exist without a lot of code from the MAME project. The MAME project is subject to it's own license, which can be found at http://mamedev.org/legal.html. Due to the use of MAME code in FB Alpha, FB Alpha is also subject to the terms of the MAME license.". It might be important to add the fact that MAME's license-change is not retroactive.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 29, 2019, 12:48:38 PM
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on April 29, 2019, 01:04:58 PM
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess

He de-activated his facebook account as soon as the news broke. His wife's account is still active, so I'm assuming he is still alive.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 29, 2019, 01:21:23 PM
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess

The lack of public response is telling.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 29, 2019, 01:24:10 PM
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess

It is about time he or someone involved made a public statement.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 29, 2019, 01:33:45 PM
In cases like this, I think it's ok to be a bit 'stalky'. Contact his wife and talk to him through her. Not everyone at once, one respected FBA dev will do. On the chance Barry didn't do this mess with malice, would you still forgive him and continue with FBA together with him? At the least you can talk it out and then decide how to continue from there on.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on April 29, 2019, 02:29:25 PM
In cases like this, I think it's ok to be a bit 'stalky'. Contact his wife and talk to him through her. Not everyone at once, one respected FBA dev will do. On the chance Barry didn't do this mess with malice, would you still forgive him and continue with FBA together with him? At the least you can talk it out and then decide how to continue from there on.

i would respectfully disagree. Bringing his family into it should never be an option. Please no one do this
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on April 29, 2019, 02:31:43 PM
i would respectfully disagree. Bringing his family into it should never be an option. Please no one do this

Yeah, I totally agree with lantus on this one, this is all on Barry.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on April 29, 2019, 03:03:37 PM
Yeah, I totally agree with lantus on this one, this is all on Barry.
Third.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 29, 2019, 03:43:49 PM
That's fine. Well Barry, if you're reading: man up and contact one of the other FBA devs already =)
No need to go public(yet), but for the sake of the project, the sooner you talk it out the better.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 29, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
In cases like this, I think it's ok to be a bit 'stalky'. Contact his wife and talk to him through her. Not everyone at once, one respected FBA dev will do. On the chance Barry didn't do this mess with malice, would you still forgive him and continue with FBA together with him? At the least you can talk it out and then decide how to continue from there on.

I don't mean to be negative and I hope to be disproved, but, from how things turned out, it's very unlikely that Barry acted in "good faith"...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on April 30, 2019, 01:46:23 AM
Is anyone personal friends with Barry? If so, I would make an attempt to reach out until he responds.   I knew this wasn't looking good when I realized the link to this forum was removed on www.fbalpha.com.

He was a bit "distracted"...

This is the project manager in me speaking so forgive me, but please and in private have a meeting on how to proceed if you decide on making a formal announcement.  It's good to iron out any issues in private.  Make sure the people that are involved in the project past and present are involved and decide what needs to be done to keep this project alive and in a healthy state.  Think about it, what potentially happened is a stress test of this project and it seems like 1 person's actions is affecting the project as a whole.  That is not good for the longevity of the project.  Projects like Debian don't stop because of 1 person's actions.  There is structure in place to prevent situations like this.  I feel like I shouldn't be speaking on this subject as I'm not directly involved, but I would hate for this wonderful project to cease due to this.  I'll gladly and respectfully stop posting if I'm coming off as annoying :-/

AFAIK several unsuccessful attempts have been made to contact Barry... now, should be him to do anything to clarify the matter... IMHO, at this point, it doesn't make sense anymore to "beg him" for a reply. In any case, I want to be positive... the "real project" will go on with or without Barry! ;)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on April 30, 2019, 06:06:09 AM
Could you post the text of the issue here, or is it lost to the very annoying github issue disabling?

Although the text made completely wrong assumptions, here it is...

Quote
Hello,
Came across this after hearing about the Capcom controversy.
Looking through the FBAlpha license, it states that
"FB Alpha would not exist without a lot of code from the MAME project. The MAME project is subject to it's own license, which can be found at http://mamedev.org/legal.html. Due to the use of MAME code in FB Alpha, FB Alpha is also subject to the terms of the MAME license."
The mame license on that page is the GPL. FBAlpha contains GPL code (smssystem.cpp, ddt3x.cpp, etc.)
The GPL specifically requires that "if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have". It does so by requiring
"You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it [like MAME], thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:"
"You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License."
As such, the GPL requires that (at a minimum) derivative works (like FBAlpha) are available under the GPL. The FBAlpha code can have additional licenses as an option, but the GPL license is still required.
If you attempt to add terms to the GPL (such as those required by license.txt), then you lose the license to the original GPL code.
Accordingly, either FBAlpha is GPL (in which case none of the terms in license.txt mean anything), or it is not (in which case you are infringing copyright and cannot distribute FBAlpha at all).
Unless you wrote all GPL code you use, you cannot add any restrictions on selling, renting, or leasing, require modifications to be public, add restrictions on what ROMs can be used, prohibit the use of DLLs (or any other restrictions on the running of the code), or limit donations. Any of those restrictions exceed the terms of the GPL license you, yourself hold, and as such they void your right to use that GPL code.
If the code is written by you, you are free to relicense it as you see fit. However, no other person may distribute derivative works containing your code and GPL code.
?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dankcushions on April 30, 2019, 06:38:28 AM
has anyone reached out to the gaming press? eurogamer have approached me before on similar emulator rights issue stories, and this one definitely has some spice about it, with barry disappearing, and a big name like capcom involved.

i'm not sure if it would do the project good or not, but right now capcom seem to have got out of this fairly clean, when these sort of bad PR stories can be a big deal. with enough pressure, they might want to make things right, whatever that entails.

i see kotaku have a short article: https://kotaku.com/the-emulator-in-capcoms-home-arcade-is-stirring-controv-1834156759, but they have a short article on everything...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on April 30, 2019, 09:46:21 AM
The whole 'FBA installed only providing a link to the MAME license page' is a problem that is causing a lot of confusion.

Obviously that page changed when MAME updated the license, however that doesn't mean the code in FBA changed license as

1) License change isn't retro-active (and FBA is based off old MAME code, under old license)
2) The rest of FBA is inherently incompatible with the GPL, so you can't distribute it at all under those terms.

This should be a lesson in why including a link to something, rather than the actual text can be a bad idea tho.

https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/Is_MAME_Open_Source%3F
CLEARLY states the license change isn't retroactive (and from a legal point of view it *can't* be retroactive)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on April 30, 2019, 10:13:39 AM
Woops, mistake in my post: the license change is indeed 0.172, not 0.174.
IMO the MAME license page should also clarify that it doesn't apply to older versions. Maybe include a link to the old license too.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dankcushions on April 30, 2019, 12:19:30 PM
biff, FBA has been forked for libretro for ages: https://github.com/libretro/fbalpha
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on May 01, 2019, 06:50:53 AM
Going the LibRetro way is only going to make the problem worse and further annoy those who contributed under 'no commercial' licenses, as things like RetroArch basically provides a way for any scummy company to bypass the license requirement by using the 'core downloader' (which probably wouldn't stand up in a court of law on a locked down box, as it's still integral to the product, but all the chinese bootleggers can get away with it because their systems are 'open')

LibRetro based frontends (RA etc.) are making no effort to show the user the emulation licenses when they get the emulators / run the cores, despite the cores being under different licenses to LR/RA, meaning a lot of people then claim ignorance of the situation because the conditions have never been communicated.  The maintainers are acting in highly irresponsible and complicit ways when it comes to this, ways which are harmful to the emulation scene in general.

LR also makes it easy for anybody to make an ad-driven 'portal' frontend, and again claim they're not going against the wishes of anybody (this happens a fair bit on mobile) 

LR also brings projects closer to things like Kodi (due to Kodi LR loader plugins) and Kodi already has a terrible reputation for being abused commercially in order to sell pirate TV boxes etc. (to the point where boxes etc. get seized, analyzed, legal action taken against plugin developers etc.)  Making it easier to add emulators to these 'all in one' boxes only brings further unwanted attention.

If anything projects would do best to kill off LR support / leave it up to the LR project maintainers, not invest further into it.  I've said elsewhere, LR is parasitic and mainly enables unwanted business models, and I stand by that.

Simply changing FBA to a libretro project would strip if of all identity, and take away the ability to provide the user experience you want as well, making more advanced features more difficult to implement as everything has to fit the 'dumbed down' model they present.

Maybe that's not what they intended when they came up with the concept of 'emulators as libraries' but it was very predictable, and is exactly what has happened.  I still think it's the single worst thing to happen in the 20 years I've been involved in emulation.  I get that it is 'convenient' but that comes at the cost of far too many negatives.  (and this doesn't even cover the technical negatives, only the social / economic ones)

Beyond even that, the core maintainers for LR cores explicitly ignore the wishes of the developers of the emulators they're including.  The RA devs act like they're the saviours and defenders of the scene, but as soon as we say 'please show the emulation imperfection warnings' they try to strong-arm MAMEdev into having an official RA core, telling us to add them ourselves if we want them and coming up with a whole bunch of technical BS about why they can't show them, rather than simply respecting the wishes of the developers.  My experience, and everything to do with them, and LR based projects is overwhelmingly negative.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on May 01, 2019, 07:10:13 AM
Going the LibRetro way is only going to make the problem worse and further annoy those who contributed under 'no commercial' licenses, as things like RetroArch basically provides a way for any scummy company to bypass the license requirement by using the 'core downloader' (which probably wouldn't stand up in a court of law on a locked down box, as it's still integral to the product, but all the chinese bootleggers can get away with it because their systems are 'open')

LibRetro based frontends (RA etc.) are making no effort to show the user the emulation licenses when they get the emulators / run the cores, despite the cores being under different licenses to LR/RA, meaning a lot of people then claim ignorance of the situation because the conditions have never been communicated.  The maintainers are acting in highly irresponsible and complicit ways when it comes to this, ways which are harmful to the emulation scene in general. RA at targets mass appeal *at any cost* which is a problem.

LR also makes it easy for anybody to make an ad-driven 'portal' frontend, and again claim they're not going against the wishes of anybody (this happens a fair bit on mobile)

LR also brings projects closer to things like Kodi (due to Kodi LR loader plugins) and Kodi already has a terrible reputation for being abused commercially in order to sell pirate TV boxes etc. (to the point where boxes etc. get seized, analyzed, legal action taken against plugin developers etc.)  Making it easier to add emulators to these 'all in one' boxes only brings further unwanted attention.

If anything projects would do best to kill off LR support / leave it up to the LR project maintainers, not invest further into it.  I've said elsewhere, LR is parasitic and mainly enables unwanted business models, and I stand by that.

Simply changing FBA to a libretro project would strip if of all identity, and take away the ability to provide the user experience you want as well, making more advanced features more difficult to implement as everything has to fit the 'dumbed down' model they present.

Maybe that's not what they intended when they came up with the concept of 'emulators as libraries' but it was very predictable, and is exactly what has happened.  I still think it's the single worst thing to happen in the 20 years I've been involved in emulation.  I get that it is 'convenient' but that comes at the cost of far too many negatives.  (and this doesn't even cover the technical negatives, only the social / economic ones)

Beyond even that, the core maintainers for LR cores explicitly ignore the wishes of the developers of the emulators they're including.  The RA devs act like they're the saviours and defenders of the scene, but as soon as we say 'please show the emulation imperfection warnings' or 'please show the license on startup (especially for older cores that are non commercial)' they try to strong-arm MAMEdev into having an official RA core, telling us to add them ourselves if we want them and coming up with a whole bunch of technical BS about why they can't show them rather than simply respecting the wishes of the developers.  My experience, and everything to do with them, and LR based projects is overwhelmingly negative, I have more respect for Barry, and after all this that is saying something.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 01, 2019, 07:48:04 AM
1. Having the libretro fork as the main repo is not gonna happen, i wouldn't recommend it myself
2. Haze, i think you are a bit harsh here, while i know you are at odds with LR for their MAME cores (and i don't want to be involved in this shit, because the only times i use MAME is with a custom build of the standalone version including only a few drivers), and i agree that libretro should show the license explicitly when using the online updater (imho it was never developped but they wouldn't be against it, after all they have been denouncing all kinds of license abuse over the years, so feel free to contribute), i don't think i ever ignored authors opinions in the cores i maintain.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on May 01, 2019, 08:19:46 AM
I was thinking about listing what needs to be done to resolve the situation, and some things imo need to be done urgently, but it's really up to the devs. I've noticed that 2 dislike what's happened, and 1 likes it. However none of them have expressed a desire to do anything, so I think all this talk from everybody else is just a lot of hot air.

IF, and only if, the development team asks for ideas or help to clean up what's happened, then I'm prepared to offer suggestions. But (and correct me if I'm wrong), they seem content to leave things as they are.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 01, 2019, 10:46:00 AM
I've noticed that 2 dislike what's happened, and 1 likes it.

None of us like it. At all.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 01, 2019, 11:50:48 AM
Although i put a lot of work into mame2003-plus on libretro i have to agree with haze. Emulation would be in a real mess if i lost stand alone emulators as libretro has many limitations and when it cant be handled its ripped out. It ok for a general platform like a raspberry pi if you have decent hardware you wouldnt really doing yourself and favors not using standalone. 
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on May 01, 2019, 07:26:45 PM
To clarify: at first I was all about for the capcom thing, because I didn't realize how entirely frigg'd up things were and were about to get.  My feelings/opinion on the situation is the same as Kev and iq_132 for quite a while now.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 02, 2019, 01:32:55 AM
I was thinking about a new "fork" for Final Burn, I don't know if this can be a good idea, in any case: what do you think about "Final Burn Phoenix" or "Final Burn Phoenix Edition" ? In the Greek mythology the phoenix obtains new life by arising from the ashes of its predecessor. in the Final Burn this can symbolize a "new life", a "new beginning", a "rebirth"...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 02, 2019, 05:55:52 AM
I liked FB Zero, but i think FB Phoenix is my new favorite since it's also a reference to restored CPS-2 cabinets (http://www.cpscodex.com/phoenix.php), it really makes sense with the current situation in many ways.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tatsuya79 on May 02, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
Blabla
My experience, and everything to do with them, and LR based projects is overwhelmingly negative, I have more respect for Barry, and after all this that is saying something.

That is throwing a lot of dirt around which has nothing to do with the subject here.
FBA libretro is awesome, it's fast, runs on many platforms, can be used with run ahead and many other features.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 02, 2019, 08:47:39 AM
I was thinking FB Alpha Zero.. But that's only a couple of steps from Super Final Burn Alpha Zero: The Hyper Anniversary Edition.

FB Zero rolls off the tongue nicely though.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 02, 2019, 09:15:41 AM
... it really makes sense with the current situation in many ways.

Yes, IMHO Final Burn Phoenix gives the idea of a "new dawn" ! ;)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on May 02, 2019, 09:24:24 AM
FBAlpha - Turkey Lasagna Edition.  anyone? :)

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 02, 2019, 10:35:25 AM
... and FBAlpha - Eggplant Parmesan Edition for Vegetarians! :P
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Bad Dude on May 02, 2019, 01:09:20 PM
FBAlpha - Turkey Lasagna Edition.  anyone? :)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-99xCPHgnY_E/VYL8AwOd3NI/AAAAAAAACOU/vNcsUEwjM7E/s1600/omg-cat.gif)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 02, 2019, 02:59:41 PM
That is throwing a lot of dirt around which has nothing to do with the subject here.
FBA libretro is awesome, it's fast, runs on many platforms, can be used with run ahead and many other features.

what many other features ?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: el_rika on May 02, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
what many other features ?

I can give some examples on android platform, where Retroarch allows use of many great shaders, great overlay controls, best speed on the platform and overall great variety and customisation. 

Of course, i'm probably one on the 5 people in the world that plays these games on the phone so...feel free to ignore my opinion.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 02, 2019, 03:55:10 PM
I can give some examples on android platform, where Retroarch allows use of many great shaders, great overlay controls, best speed on the platform and overall great variety and customisation. 

Of course, i'm probably one on the 5 people in the world that plays these games on the phone so...feel free to ignore my opinion.

Again afaik there are no official android fba builds so lr is your only choice on that platform. It just re iterates what i said before lower spec platforms is where LR can so some good because there is no other choice.

That doesnt mean is good for other platforms where the standalone emulators are ripped of features when ported to lr because it doesnt fit the model.  Quiet frankly LR providing shaders and overlays might seem nice to you. Having a frontend with no gui support( ie the ablility to press a yes/no button or display a message saying a rom is missing and wait for a confirmation button press)   within core in this day and ages is quite frankly a step backwards
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 02, 2019, 04:21:07 PM
I created a pull request on the new repo to update the fba licence with a link to the old MAME licence. I have done this on my phone so it's messy, to say the least! If MAMEDev want us to put something more specific please let us know.

P.S. well done to whomever changed Trebble_winners forum sig lol
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 04, 2019, 03:44:18 PM
Great job with the fork and all, guys.

About libretro... It's not perfect, but I like it quite a bit, and am thankful for barbudreadmon's work. To be honest, although I like FBA very much, its GUI is a mess (it's its weakest point, in my opinion), which is why I'd rather use the libretro version to avoid it. It just works.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: dink on May 04, 2019, 06:52:06 PM
Great job with the fork and all, guys.

About libretro... It's not perfect, but I like it quite a bit, and am thankful for barbudreadmon's work. To be honest, although I like FBA very much, its GUI is a mess (it's its weakest point, in my opinion), which is why I'd rather use the libretro version to avoid it. It just works.

Hehe that's funny, I feel exactly the opposite - I love FBA's gui.   but - different strokes for different folks.

best regards,
- dink
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 05, 2019, 02:50:07 AM
Hehe that's funny, I feel exactly the opposite - I love FBA's gui.   but - different strokes for different folks.

best regards,
- dink

Off the top of my head:

I know some of these things have been improved, but it's still a pain to use to me.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 05, 2019, 04:05:44 AM
Personally i think retroarch's way to scan roms is extremely confusing, which is why i always end up using external frontends or command line to launch roms xD, the UI with its hundreds of settings is also totally overwhelming at first.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 05, 2019, 02:23:04 PM
Off the top of my head:
  • Defining ROM paths is slow and not flexible (max limit of 20, sub folders not supported)
  • I'm always confused whether gamepad settings will be specific to a game or shared, and keep restoring default buttons by mistake
  • ROM scanning is slow (maybe some kind of cache could be put in place to make rescanning faster?)
  • Game genres are awkward to use (they were probably fine back when we didn't have dozens of categories) and should probably be replaced by some kind of tag system

I know some of these things have been improved, but it's still a pain to use to me.


and whats the Ra alternatives to this how are your sorting your genres, listing UN-avialble roms, listing only cave games ect? I dont really know why anyone would have more than 20 directories. 

The scanner is slow for a reason because it scans your roms properly.

Im really surprised you prefer an option that only scans directories with a torrent zip crc to list a roms details else youll have to just use the zip filenames. So all you have is a list of games with no way to sort the list at all. If you love not having a gui im sure you will love RA each to there own I would say the gui is a big selling point to use the stand alone.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 05, 2019, 04:45:14 PM
and whats the Ra alternatives to this how are your sorting your genres, listing UN-avialble roms, listing only cave games ect? I dont really know why anyone would have more than 20 directories.

EmulationStation can now filter by genre if I'm not mistaken, although I haven't tried recent versions because I'd rather update later.
I don't care about unavailable ROMs, because I've already fully built my game list at that point (I build my game list on Windows then play games on my Pi).
I might reach 20 directories while building my game list. I'd rather avoid having to define 20 directories, which is why I wish files were searched recursively, which would allow me to just define the root folder. 20 is a static, arbitrary limit that could just be dynamic.

The scanner is slow for a reason because it scans your roms properly.

No doubt there is a reason why it's so slow, and no doubt there are alternatives to that.

Im really surprised you prefer an option that only scans directories with a torrent zip crc to list a roms details else youll have to just use the zip filenames. So all you have is a list of games with no way to sort the list at all.

You know full game titles, genres, etc can be scraped, right?

If you love not having a gui im sure you will love RA each to there own I would say the gui is a big selling point to use the stand alone.

I don't love not having a GUI, I just don't like the FBA one. It gets the job done, but the UX and performances can definitely be improved.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 05, 2019, 05:27:13 PM
all the information to make the rom names for emulation station are in the dats that mame and fba generate. There is no need to scrape at all I personally use a script i made for the pi to create the names form the dat with the zip romnames. From what I understand you using emulation station as a launcher and not ra itself. So it makes sense you dont have any issues because your not using RA itself.

Al the information required is in the source code itself thats why gui is important for a core to have to do functions like this. Data can be added to the dat file to be parsed in emulation station though if its needed you would need to request it though. We have rom names and the year for the game as well as the rom data. So that's enough to make a game list for emulation station.

As far as validation goes you could ask the authors to add an option not to validate the rom but it really needs done with split sets and such the filename.zip isint enough if people want to know there roms are working.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 05, 2019, 05:34:02 PM
Right, I don't use RetroArch directly.

As far as validation goes you could ask the authors to add an option not to validate the rom but it really needs done with split sets and such the filename.zip isint enough if people want to know there roms are working.

But it's redundant as far as I'm concerned, as I'm already validating my ROMs with RomCenter. I believe that's the point of letting users extract game list dat files.
Also, if I just add one game to my list, I certainly don't want to rescan and revalidate all of my other ROMs just to make that new game show up as available.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 05, 2019, 05:58:38 PM
Please stay on the original subject.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 06, 2019, 01:23:17 PM
Yea well on subject let libretro deal with its own ports and license issues. FBA has strengths to remain standalone no point in loosing its identity when it clearly has strengths on stand alone imho :).
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 07, 2019, 04:50:48 AM
(I removed some not related posts about RA. Also this post contains swearing)

So to give a bit of an update. I emailed Capcom and Koch Media on the day of the announcement of the arcade stick. Here is a probably out of order list of what has happened so far. I am not quoting directly from any emails as I am not sure if that is even legal here in the UK, and if this does get as far as going to court I don't want to have fucked up in any way.

Capcom

Capcom are the only people to respond so far. I don't want to say they don't care, but the reply they sent back was pretty much along the lines of "we licenced the roms to Koch, please go away", so that is what I am doing.

Koch

No reply so far. I have sent them an email linking to this thread, the threads on Reddit, the video by lantus, and even Barry's own twitter post, the FB licence, etc to give them an idea of why this is not legal. No response so far.

Barry

Interestingly I had an email from Barry. It originally went to my Spam folder, I guess because he is a traitor. To paraphrase:


That pretty much covers what has happened so far, and I am still pursuing this with Koch. I am not replying to Barry at all, as he couldn't be bothered to a) speak to the devs separately b) acknowledge any of this publicly c) attempted to kill an almost 20 year old open source project due to what I can only assume was for money.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 07, 2019, 05:36:21 AM
  • He said that the "stripped down version of FB Alpha" that he licenced for use in the capcom arcade stick contains no code written by me, and any code from MAME has been re-ported from the GPL3 licenced MAME, which means it's fine for commercial use. I guess they don't know that this is still not legal due to the licence of FB Alpha, which is not GPL3 compatible and also is NON FUCKING COMMERCIAL LIKE THE LICENCE SAYS.

The supposedly stripped down version contains at the very least dave's work, and dave didn't give authorization for re-licensing (confirmed in youtube discussion below lantus's video).
Or, if he really did rewrite everything from scratch using code from GPL3 licenced MAME :
- that can't be called FB Alpha so they'll have to remove their statement about using FB Alpha
- code needs to be made public

(Thanks for cleaning up the topic)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Robert on May 07, 2019, 06:55:40 AM
Interesting. So, to summarise:

- Capcom merely provided a license to Koch, and that's where their involvement ends. If that's true, then fair enough.

- Koch is either ignoring you (which they can afford to do), or they are checking it out with their legal team (which takes time).

- Barry... well, he seems confused, to put it nicely.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: hap on May 07, 2019, 09:31:22 AM
When did he write this email?

Anyway, my 2ct:

Rewriting code back to a stripped down FBA is possible, but you'd have to redo it from scratch, you wouldn't be allowed to use the old FBA code as reference. Unless it comes with its own license(eg. 68000 core), any code(even a simple copy paste from MAME) done by other FBA devs is licensed under the FBA license and can't be relicensed without permission. Considering that MAME YM2151 core is GPL now, if it's all done correctly, Koch would need to make the source code public.

And yeah, he'd still need permission from Dave, which he obviously didn't ask. And asking it after licensing to Koch doesn't count. Under normal circumstances I don't think Dave would mind it. But after all this drama he'd have a dilemma, either side with Barry or side with the rest of the FBA guys.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 07, 2019, 09:44:38 AM
When did he write this email?

Anyway, my 2ct:

Rewriting code back to a stripped down FBA is possible, but you'd have to redo it from scratch, you wouldn't be allowed to use the old FBA code as reference. Unless it comes with its own license(eg. 68000 core), any code(even a simple copy paste from MAME) done by other FBA devs is licensed under the FBA license and can't be relicensed without permission. Considering that MAME YM2151 core is GPL now, if it's all done correctly, Koch would need to make the source code public.

And yeah, he'd still need permission from Dave, which he obviously didn't ask. And asking it after licensing to Koch doesn't count. Under normal circumstances I don't think Dave would mind it. But after all this drama he'd have a dilemma, either side with Barry or side with the rest of the FBA guys.

I agree with what you say here.

Imo, If they did a complete rewrite you could say that they could get away with saying "emulation by Barry Harris". I'd still push for the code though, and I'd also run a forensic check against the 18+ years worth of commits and changes made to the code compared to what they released. I still have a backup of the ancient CVS server the SVN server and a lot of the previous source zip files before such things were used so it had better if been a proper rewrite.

If only they had just used MAME from the start, could have just paid him to make whatever changes were needed for platform optimization. Would save me a lot of anger lol
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 07, 2019, 10:39:03 AM
Also the mail was sent on the 27th I believe. I didn't see it until a while after that as it was just in my spam folder.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: lantus on May 07, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
thanks for the update kev

it confirms what we suspected all along. I hope the money was worth it. Like pay off a mortgage worth it or something lol

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on May 09, 2019, 09:16:30 AM
Yes, IMHO Final Burn Phoenix gives the idea of a "new dawn" ! ;)

for me FBZ is top, FB pheonix is reminiscent of phoenix roms of razoola.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Bad Dude on May 09, 2019, 10:10:49 AM
Final Burn Zero is the best!
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 09, 2019, 01:00:34 PM
for me FBZ is top, FB pheonix is reminiscent of phoenix roms of razoola.

IMHO Final Burn Zero has a good acronym (FBZ), but it sounds like a kind of "alternative version" (similar to Street Fighter Alpha and Street Fighter Zero) and not like the new "official" version... maybe something like "Final Burn Redux" could be better.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 09, 2019, 01:30:46 PM
IMHO Final Burn Zero has a good acronym (FBZ), but it sounds like a kind of "alternative version" (similar to Street Fighter Alpha and Street Fighter Zero) and not like the new "official" version... maybe something like "Final Burn Redux" could be better.

Yes, that crossed my mind too. If the naming was meant to be fully consistent with the Street Fighter titles, then FBA would be the English version while FBZ would be the Japanese one... That might give people the wrong idea.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 09, 2019, 03:38:18 PM
IMHO Final Burn Zero has a good acronym (FBZ), but it sounds like a kind of "alternative version" (similar to Street Fighter Alpha and Street Fighter Zero) and not like the new "official" version... maybe something like "Final Burn Redux" could be better.

I think Final Burn Zero works precisely because it is an "alternative" version. Final Burn Alpha isn't going anywhere. I think you can say "the first official Final Burn Zero (or whatever) build", but to refer to Final Burn Zero (again, or whatever) as the "new "official" version" isn't quite right. I mean, we're talking about open-source emulation here, we shouldn't get caught up on what's official and what's not. And so, the allusion to Street Fighter Alpha and Zero is probably more accurate than people would like to admit. Granted, it is a little on the nose calling it Final Burn Zero when you think of it in those terms, but it sounds cool. And what's more important than sounding cool?

For example, Redux is cool too, but technically Alpha is a redux version of Final Burn. Along with Plus and the countless other versions. So it should be Final Burn Alpha Redux, or Final Burn Alpha 2 Zero, which brings us right back to the Street Fighter names. Theirs no escape.

I'm new, please don't shoot me.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Stifu on May 09, 2019, 04:21:00 PM
I think Final Burn Zero works precisely because it is an "alternative" version.

I doubt Barry is going to maintain FBA alone, and I doubt anyone will help him. I can't see how FBA could survive. It's the new OpenOffice.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 09, 2019, 04:28:50 PM
I'm new, please don't shoot me.

Don't worry, I'm a pacifist... sometimes! :P

Joking aside, in a forum it's important that everyone can express themselves freely (obviously, always with respect for others) ! :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Gab75 on May 09, 2019, 04:34:41 PM
I doubt Barry is going to maintain FBA alone, and I doubt anyone will help him. I can't see how FBA could survive. It's the new OpenOffice.

I agree... it's very unlikely that the "old" FBA will get new updates...
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 09, 2019, 05:36:34 PM
Joking aside, in a forum it's important that everyone can express themselves freely (obviously, always with respect for others) ! :)

Quite right!

I doubt Barry is going to maintain FBA alone, and I doubt anyone will help him. I can't see how FBA could survive. It's the new OpenOffice.

I have no idea what will happen with FBA, but you're probably right on the money. That's not going to stop people using it though. Not now, not in 10 years. And that's okay because FBA isn't Barry, and Barry isn't FBA. Looking through the code you can tell a lot of smart people put a lot of time and effort in to creating it. And for that, it's not going anywhere. Although, with time, it's likely to become outdated. I did't know who Barry was until I heard him mentioned on here, but I sure as hell know what Final Burn is. I'm sure it's the same for most people.

..Maybe if I say FB Zero enough, it'll stick..
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on May 10, 2019, 11:28:25 AM
And when we think back to the origin of "FBA" (by barry and DP.WANG): FB launcher + FBCPS2en, I say that the loop is looped lol.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: 7zxkv on May 10, 2019, 11:32:52 AM
And when we think back to the origin of "FBA" (by barry and DP.WANG): FB launcher + FBCPS2en, I say that the loop is looped lol.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Tatsuya79 on May 11, 2019, 11:06:00 AM
@Arcadez
You think it's really needed to bring that site here?
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 11, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
I cleanup up, stay on the subject, rumors are rumors, someone started a rumor about me hacking yabasanshiro's website a few months ago because i work on "rival emulator" kronos, did i do it ? No, why would i do that ? All that stuff is just ridiculous, there is too much in-fighting on the emulation scene, we need to fight companies making money from our work instead.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on May 11, 2019, 11:35:35 AM
hmmm i've been a member of this site for nigh on a decade and that's the first time i recall that i've been censored
please remove my account as if this is part of the new direction on here eg you cant speak about certain things
i dont want to be part of it.

regards
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: barbudreadmon on May 11, 2019, 01:09:22 PM
Ok, i'm restoring it, but i don't think spreading this kind of rumors is good for the community.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 11, 2019, 01:57:39 PM
Dear fellow criminals,

Weird.. it's almost like it's one rule for the emulation community and another rule for Capcom. Lets be honest here..

1. We've all been stealing from Capcom for nearly 2 decades (don't say you haven't, because I know you have). But,
2. As soon as Capcom takes (or buys?) something from the emulation community, they're an evil company? Come on,
3. We break the law (almost) every time we open FB Alpha. And,
4. By contributing to FB Alpha, we help other people break the law.
5. It's not like Capcom took the emulator and sold it as a standalone product.
6. We're actively losing Capcom business - I, and many others, won't be buying the Capcom Home Arcade System because we already have arcade sticks and FB Alpha (whoops).

Seems like everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Except for you guys.. you're all innocent.. so innocent.

Their's no way in hell Barry rewrote the code (we all know it), but it's not even out until October, so their's nothing you can do until then. He's either a dick or, as someone else said, just plain wrong. But until you can prove it, I don't think it's worth crying over. I don't think any of this is worth crying over. And it certainly isn't worth censoring people and falling out over. I've only been here a week and I'm already sick of hearing about this, but people shouldn't be deleting posts. And if people continue to do so I won't be around for much longer. I think someone owes Arcadez an apology. I'm more bothered about this than the Capcom Home Arcade System. If I can't express myself, even if I'm wrong, we have a problem.

I tried to spread a c'est la vie attitude with my last 2 posts on this thread, but I guess it didn't rub off on anyone, so I'm trying a different approach. I obviously don't believe those 6 points 100%, but there is some truth to it that people aren't grasping. The point is we should listen to different opinions, no matter how triggered we are.

Before anyone says I'm just kissing Capcom's arse.. I really couldn't care less about Capcom. They're an entity designed to make the most amount of money possible, with the least amount of effort. Though, they have started making decent games again recently (SF4, SF5, SF Collection, DMC5, RE2R, etc), so props to them for that.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 11, 2019, 02:12:04 PM
I would like to say it was me that pointed this link out to arcadez elsewhere its my fault. Its a pretty sad state of affairs emulation is in now.  Everyone and there granny seems to be cashing in accept the people that are putting the real work in to the emulators.

Thankfully we have people that truly love what they do despite the middle men cashing in. I think your right on everyone claiming innocence on copyright. I do have respect for devs that do it for a hobby and free. When you start making money off copyrighted material and other peoples work its disgraceful no mater who is doing it.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 11, 2019, 03:27:52 PM
I was typing that while the post got reinstated, and I'm glad to see it back. Respect dude.

Indeed, we're all walking the knifes edge with copyright law, so for people to get high and mighty about it seems rather hypocritical, at least from my perspective. But more than that.. I don't want to see people being silenced. Arcadez has a right to his opinion. We all do.

To quote Gab75 again..

Joking aside, in a forum it's important that everyone can express themselves freely (obviously, always with respect for others) ! :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 11, 2019, 04:46:05 PM
couldnt agree more enough said on the subject censorship is never good for anyone. I do happen to agree with arcadez thats irrelevant though. Cut through the white noise and we still have a great team of coders despite who is and isint making money.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Arcadez on May 11, 2019, 05:02:47 PM
@Arcadez
You think it's really needed to bring that site here?

Outta respect for the devs on here who are likely sick of this thread by now i've removed my original post to not fuel the fire
and i'll leave at that i think.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 11, 2019, 06:01:03 PM
I'm not censoring anything but I've deleted a load of nonsense not related to the capcom arcade stick abomination. Let's stick to just that load of nonsense on this thread please :)
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 11, 2019, 06:20:28 PM
yea i will agree the post removed were off topic dont see it as censorship at all was just off topic. I do apologize for my part in it.

It did start by someone suggesting using the the libretto license then turned into a libretro vs stand alone nonsense thats another debate.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: grant2258 on May 11, 2019, 08:07:04 PM
actually i didnt realize you deleted another load of posts regarding people cashing in as well. I dont have any hard feelings at all just simply fed up like the rest of you probably are. I do think it very contradictory letting one lot do it and not the another. I cant see anywhere to delete the account if someone could do that for me it would be appreciated.

All the best with this particular issue I really do hope it works out well for you all in the end. My days of contributing to making older hardware run better are done. I didnt contribute to this emulator anyway. My contributions where elsewhere ive always used this emulator from the 486/pentium days though.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Haze on May 11, 2019, 08:27:19 PM
Dear fellow criminals,

Weird.. it's almost like it's one rule for the emulation community and another rule for Capcom. Lets be honest here..

1. We've all been stealing from Capcom for nearly 2 decades (don't say you haven't, because I know you have). But,
2. As soon as Capcom takes (or buys?) something from the emulation community, they're an evil company? Come on,
3. We break the law (almost) every time we open FB Alpha. And,
4. By contributing to FB Alpha, we help other people break the law.
5. It's not like Capcom took the emulator and sold it as a standalone product.
6. We're actively losing Capcom business - I, and many others, won't be buying the Capcom Home Arcade System because we already have arcade sticks and FB Alpha (whoops).

Seems like everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Except for you guys.. you're all innocent.. so innocent.

Their's no way in hell Barry rewrote the code (we all know it), but it's not even out until October, so their's nothing you can do until then. He's either a dick or, as someone else said, just plain wrong. But until you can prove it, I don't think it's worth crying over. I don't think any of this is worth crying over. And it certainly isn't worth censoring people and falling out over. I've only been here a week and I'm already sick of hearing about this, but people shouldn't be deleting posts. And if people continue to do so I won't be around for much longer. I think someone owes Arcadez an apology. I'm more bothered about this than the Capcom Home Arcade System. If I can't express myself, even if I'm wrong, we have a problem.

I tried to spread a c'est la vie attitude with my last 2 posts on this thread, but I guess it didn't rub off on anyone, so I'm trying a different approach. I obviously don't believe those 6 points 100%, but there is some truth to it that people aren't grasping. The point is we should listen to different opinions, no matter how triggered we are.

Before anyone says I'm just kissing Capcom's arse.. I really couldn't care less about Capcom. They're an entity designed to make the most amount of money possible, with the least amount of effort. Though, they have started making decent games again recently (SF4, SF5, SF Collection, DMC5, RE2R, etc), so props to them for that.

Software licenses are in important thing tho, and posts like this, trying to act like they don't matter because of x/y/z are not really helpful.

The fact is, FBA and the emulation community have never been selling Capcom's work without permission.  Sure, people use Capcom's IP in their spare time, but no money is exchanging hands and the FBA devs are not distributing anything owned by Capcom.

Capcom (well Koch Media) on the other hand IS selling our (the community's) work without permission.  As above, we don't care what they're doing with our software it in their spare time if no money is exchanging hands, but in this case it is.

There's no real double standard here, it's just if you're doing something on a commercial level, and making money out of it, you need to do it right; the FBA license and copyrights are just as valid and important as the Capcom ones in that situation.

If we wanted to sell Capcom's stuff, we would need a license from Capcom, and would rightly expect to get shut down if we didn't have one or made false claims that somebody had licensed Capcom's IP to us for commercial use and went ahead with selling things anyway.  There are likely licensing agreements Capcom had that meant (in a similar way to how FBA can't be licensed commercially) that even Capcom can't offer certain licenses to commercial use any more (I was actually surprised by AVP since that one is often tricky to get licenses for) and again, those can't just be ignored either in a commercial product just because licensing them has become impossible.  You can't say that just because Capcom made The Punisher game they can ignore Marvel's commercial licensing terms, just as they can't ignore FBA's licensing terms.  Every single part holds the same value.

Emulators are not illegal pieces of software, they're compatibility layers, something closer to an media player (VLC etc.) but for software where the hardware emulations are like the codecs.  I've also stated very clearly elsewhere that the motives behind a lot of the development (at least for MAME) have absolutely nothing to do with people actually playing the games (even if some people do find this inconceivable) so the scene has never even been about 'stealing from Capcom' at least on a development level.  With CPS2 for example, the research into the encryption, revival of dead original boards etc. is a direct result of the research the community has done and on a personal level I'd say 100 times more interesting than people playing the games.  It's actually quite insulting to see the hobby dismissed as simply piracy like you're trying to do, when in reality it's an entire support network for this old tech based on software that we've legitimately spent our time (which is just as valuable as Capcom's time or Koch Media's time) researching, writing and developing, maintaining etc.

In this case, the developers of FBA / FB decided on a policy where they didn't want anybody to be profiting from the work, and all contributions were made with that understanding, and that is fair enough.

You're basically saying science is an illegitimate field of work and that the rights of those working is said field don't matter.  That isn't the case, it never has been.

If you're doing things commercially you _have to_ do things the right way.  Emulation is already saving people a ton of work and making things as easy as possible, but if lines have been drawn, they can't be ignored.

I don't appreciate you trying to basically just paint everybody as pirates stealing from Capcom just because maybe your primary reason for doing this has been playing games for free and then somehow use it to justify what is happening here.

Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 11, 2019, 09:30:29 PM
Nevermind.. no ones ever used emulation for illegal shit, especially not Haze. He's innocent guys.. so innocent.

I think it would be a different story if Capcom were selling it as a standalone product. But they're selling a nice bit of kit (albeit overpriced). People have used emulation to pirate their games for years. I for one, appreciate it, and couldn't care less what emulator they used. That's my opinion. Not whatever it is you said about science.

The point I was trying to make was that people should be able to express themselves without fear of censorship. I clarified this in a second post which was censored (deleted).

Did you miss the part where I said I obviously didn't believe those 6 points. I just think to deny the fact that people use emulation (mostly) to pirate games is, quite frankly, idiotic. You can cry innocence til you turn blue in the face. I know the truth.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: kev on May 12, 2019, 02:15:39 AM
(as a side note) If my moderating is too extremist for anyone posting in this thread    either:

1) post your unrelated (but legal) stuff in a different thread, in the correct forum

2) ask myself or another admin to delete your account (if that's what you want)

3) just ignore it! It's nothing personal, I just want to keep this thread on topic.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: Ryvius86 on May 12, 2019, 03:24:14 AM
Saying the thread is getting off topic is completely disingenuous. Damned if one of us has a differing opinion. The amount of posts deleted from this page is disgusting. I guess I have to agree with Haze or my post will be deleted. Again. Lets see...

- FB decided on a licence policy, which Capcom paid for. Capcom then gets screwed over by said licencing agreement, but Capcom = Bad.
- The onus should be on the one buying the licence, not the one selling it, legally speaking. I mean, the law surrounding emulation isn't full of grey areas at all. They should have known what they were getting into. And be punished for it.
- When people play Capcom games illegally, we should all call it "using Capcom's IP in (our) spare time" because calling us pirates is offensive.
- Scrap that. No one ever uses FBA/MAME to play pirated games. We all love coding afterall. Every single one of us. And besides, it's 100 times more interesting than playing games. Playing games isn't even the point. What even is a game?
- Let's all cry and call Capcom parasites, even though they removed FB Alpha from the product description and we don't have any idea what's really going on.
- We're all good boys. We dindu noffin'.

It's all so clear to me now...

Edit: It seems like kev suicide-bombed the thread. Took a a bunch of you out, and himself in the process. Well done mate. Here's a quote from a PM he sent me:

"Sorry you feel that way, I believe I wasn't censoring anything, only trying to keep the thread on topic. Doing that from a phone sometimes stuff gets deleted by accident, but I try and out those back where I can. Sometimes I can't due to laziness, etc."

I'm surprised he could even muster the energy to reply, you know, due to laziness, etc. Don't worry, it wasn't censorship, just incompetence. I tried replying, but it seems he's deleted his account.
Title: Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
Post by: iq_132 on May 12, 2019, 09:22:45 PM
I'm so tired of this thread, of this emu-drama. Barry screwed the rest of the team over. All of this makes no difference. I want to move on, Dink wants to move on. Let's just all move on. We're working on a new fork now, with a new forum. I don't want any more censoring here and I don't want any more discussion about it. This whole topic is entirely too painful and I want to just move on from all of this.
That being said, someone has already locked the thread (I'm assuming Kev, before he deleted his account). I'm inclined to leave it locked and just be done. Let's just get back to working on the emulator formerly known as FB Alpha. If there are further questions, PM me.