Author Topic: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation  (Read 33425 times)

Offline Gab75

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2019, 04:58:57 AM »
Thanks for responding!  I was afraid to make that post because I'm not involved in the project and felt I shouldn't express my opinion, but I honestly feel the contributors to this project are very friendly, helpful and something like this shouldn't have happened.   Like some, I'm already assuming the worse case scenario because of how it was announced and was done behind the backs of the contributors to the project.

You're correct the name "FinalBurn" is a brand, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes regarding the software name, logo, trademark, etc.  I wouldn't' want some uncertainly lurking around the corner if a fork with the name "FinalBurn"  in the title actually happens. This would be an exciting opportunity for the contributors to give this fork a new identity and to leave behind a brand that has been hurt by the recent developments.  I'm using LibreOffice and LineageOS as examples because their original projects  were faced with negative events that forced them to fork and with that, they created new branding.  There definitely was confusion at first, but now those projects are well known.

You're welcome! :) This is a "open forum" and anyone can say the personal opinion (obviously with respect for DEVs and other members)... ;)

Your thought is potentially correct, but "FinalBurn" is a brand connected (since many years) with a free and not commercial emulator, so an appropriation attempt could lead legal and counterproductive disputes.
Other thing, probably for a trading company register a trademark well known by the expert users (users which can't be easily "deceived") and not by the casual users, it's not a productive action... so I don't think it can be a "main danger".
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 06:48:36 AM by Gab75 »

kev

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2019, 05:34:35 PM »
I apologize for chiming in on the recent events as I am only a fan and end-user of FB Alpha.  I felt the need to make a post because although I'm not involved in the project whatsoever, I feel the people involved on making this great software have been wronged and clearly disrespected.  I work in IT and although my opinion is generalized, I feel like as whole, there is toxicity when it comes to software dev and open source projects.

I also noticed the removed link to this forum on the FB Alpha homepage and clearly the lack of response from the project lead clearly says it all.  If I was involved in this project, I would be super pissed and not because of money that may potentially involved, but the trust has been broken. 

Just my opinion, move on, its clear what's going on.  Reminds me of the whole OpenOffice/Libre Office and CyanogenMod/LineageOS situation.  Not moving on will hurt the brand and will prevent future contributions to this project.  Dare I say not include FinalBurn in the new name.  People that follow emulation will follow the new project.  Sorry for the long post and hope you understand where I'm coming from. 

Best of luck to however you proceed.

Hello strange Koch Media bot person. Welcome to the forum.

Offline KaaMoS

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2019, 04:50:09 PM »
Hello, friends.
So sad to read all of this 😔

However, you're still here, and have the brains to perfectly overcome this, the passion you've shown to us all these years is a prove of that.
I think this is a good time to take in hands what is actually yours.

Since the most of you where involved from the beginning, would be good to reflect that... I don't know if Neo-Source name is kept, since it's still a reference to FB Alpha.

About the fork name, I'd go with something like "Zero" or "Omega", but something like "Final Burn Origins" could be better. It resets all this "alpha" era to the beginning of all, where you started to fork FB. No mention about future role it could have if people tries to search from sites like Google. 😁

Friends, keep strong and firm.
We'll be here with you.

kev

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2019, 05:48:21 AM »
Ouch!  That kinda hurt :-(  Long time into emulation back in the Zophar Domain days.  These events really bothered me and felt a need to speak.  I want this project to thrive because it's brought me so much joy and I love reading when someone finally figures out some technical challenge and making it work.  I want nothing but success for you guys and don't want negative circumstances to affect you.  "FinalBurn" is a brand and if you know you can move forward using that name in a fork, then go for it.  Maybe consult with someone on MAME on how to proceed with the licenses to make sure some jerk doesn't come claim its theirs.  Again, unless what is happening is only known to you guys, it appears things are being done behind your backs and who knows what else is brewing.

Peace and <3

In that case I completely apologise. Sorry.

Offline kathysrazor

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2019, 02:54:21 AM »
This is 100% commercial use.

That's one of the least problems with the FBAlpha licensing, to be honest.

FBAlpha has GPL code in it.  Only the original authors can relicense it, and until they do, that GPL code can't be combined to create a derivative work unless that code is with a GPL-compatible license. 

The best hope of salvaging it is by abusing the clause that says "Due to the use of MAME code in FB Alpha, FB Alpha is also subject to the terms of the MAME license." (which lets you argue that the whole thing is GPL), but that doesn't solve the issue of the code with limitations on commercial use that was not contributed by the original author (like Dave and FinalBurn).

Put simply, the only license that FBAlpha could legally be distributed under would be the GPL, but the GPL doesn't work given some of the code in there.  Basically, the whole project is a mess.

The restrictions on commercial use simply don't fly with GPL code.  Given the mismatch of licenses, the only real option to make this legal would be to either re-write or contact the authors to relicense the SP0256, i8x41, arm7, mcs51, NMOS 6502 illegal opcodes, 65sc02, 2a03, and other drivers.  In theory, one could just remove all the MAME and GPL parts, but then all the "non-commercial" parts would still apply.

It's a real mess, and licensing has been neglected for some time.  I attempted to post an issue about it on GitHub, but Barry just turned the issues off completely shortly after I did.

Offline kathysrazor

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2019, 02:56:42 AM »
I wish I was knowledgeable on licensing in this regard as I'd love to help you as I've seen some crazy stuff in a professional setting when it comes to software audits.

I'm the CEO for a company that sells commercial licensing for open source software.  While I'd only be speaking for myself, I'd be glad to answer questions you have about open source intellectual property.

Offline barbudreadmon

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2019, 04:45:36 AM »
@kathysrazor Afaik, there is no GPL code in fbalpha, all code ported from MAME is from a MAME version prior to their migration to GPL license, and as such is subject to the license at that time, not the new one. license.txt is probably unclear about this though.

kev

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2019, 08:18:13 AM »
It's a real mess, and licensing has been neglected for some time.  I attempted to post an issue about it on GitHub, but Barry just turned the issues off completely shortly after I did.

Could you post the text of the issue here, or is it lost to the very annoying github issue disabling?

Offline hap

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2019, 09:02:23 AM »
Final Burn Alpha's code copied or ported from MAME is within the bounds of licensing. The old cores and drivers are from MAME before it changed to open source at version 0.174, see MAME's old license here: https://github.com/mamedev/historic-mame/blob/master/docs/license.txt
MAME's license-change is not retroactive. MAME 0.173 and older are still under the previous MAME license.

New code ports to FBA are fine as long as the original MAME driver is BSD3. FBA devs need to be careful not to port GPL-licensed chip emulations or drivers. Off the top of my head, the only time this occured is with Monkey Magic:
MAME: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/mmagic.cpp
FBA: https://github.com/barry65536/FBAlpha/blob/master/src/burn/drv/pre90s/d_mmagic.cpp

Permission must be obtained before porting GPL code to FBA.
Regarding mmagic, I asked Dirk a moment ago and he says he's ok with it.

Offline dink

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2019, 09:18:03 AM »
Thanks hap :)

kev

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2019, 09:46:26 AM »
Final Burn Alpha's code copied or ported from MAME is within the bounds of licensing. The old cores and drivers are from MAME before it changed to open source at version 0.174, see MAME's old license here: https://github.com/mamedev/historic-mame/blob/master/docs/license.txt
MAME's license-change is not retroactive. MAME 0.173 and older are still under the previous MAME license.

New code ports to FBA are fine as long as the original MAME driver is BSD3. FBA devs need to be careful not to port GPL-licensed chip emulations or drivers. Off the top of my head, the only time this occured is with Monkey Magic:
MAME: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/mmagic.cpp
FBA: https://github.com/barry65536/FBAlpha/blob/master/src/burn/drv/pre90s/d_mmagic.cpp

Permission must be obtained before porting GPL code to FBA.
Regarding mmagic, I asked Dirk a moment ago and he says he's ok with it.

Thanks for confirming that Hap.

So my opinion and solely my opinion only, based on the facts that I have and my understanding of the said facts, just for any Capcom or Koch Media employees or representatives that might be reading this forum, that means that any code that is in FB Alpha (or FBA, or even Finalburn) that has been taken from MAME under that old licence cannot also be used in a commercial product as MAME was also non-commercial at that point, at least as I understand it. I would also assume that any code taken from MAME post 0.173 and attached or used in a derived FB Alpha in a commercial environment would also cause a lot of problems from a licence point of view as the licences are very much not compatible, and FB Alpha would also still have the VERY CLEAR non-commercial clause in the licence.




Offline hap

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2019, 10:06:41 AM »
Yes, that was already clear from the start. Barry had to either ask permission from all contributors, or rewrite the source. The chance of that having happened is about as large as me going on a date with Audrey Tautou.

Offline barbudreadmon

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2019, 10:29:43 AM »
Imho, the spelling of this sentence in license.txt is confusing : "FB Alpha would not exist without a lot of code from the MAME project. The MAME project is subject to it's own license, which can be found at http://mamedev.org/legal.html. Due to the use of MAME code in FB Alpha, FB Alpha is also subject to the terms of the MAME license.". It might be important to add the fact that MAME's license-change is not retroactive.

Offline lantus

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2019, 12:48:38 PM »
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess

Offline iq_132

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Re: Capcom Home Arcade stick using FB Alpha Emulation
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2019, 01:04:58 PM »
So - no one has heard from Barry at all? I figure he has Facebook and other means to get in touch with him.

As kev said, he made a single tweet about it and disappeared. There is no product out yet. It's easy to assume he took the cash and ran, but this is very out of character for him.

I welcome his response to this mess

He de-activated his facebook account as soon as the news broke. His wife's account is still active, so I'm assuming he is still alive.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 03:02:58 PM by iq_132 »